A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

[Kepler]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

The Obamas are attending a prestigious private school as do most of the Washington elite.

Which doesn't change anything I said.

Also: I can understand the president or a billionaire sending his kids to a private school -- their kids are at risk. Tucker Carlson, however, should take his chances with the rough and tumble Old Towne Alexandria school system.

[Critical Thinker]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Bullshit. School vouchers were just a way to get taxpayers to foot the bill for Cheney's grandchildren going to Choat.

We can restore public schools to the level they were at 50 years ago by evening out funding at the state level, rather than having it at the local level which merely perpetuates ghettoization of poor and rich neighborhoods.

I'm a proud public high school graduate and I had an excellent education -- because our district was rolling in dough. Do the same for all districts and we can break the cycle of poverty in one generation.

Spend all you want on education, but nothing will change if students continue to not pay attention in the classroom. Teachers have virtually no control over students. The disrespect shown to teachers by students is unbelievable. And what can schools do about it? Can't damage their fragile self esteem. So can they tell the parents? Doesn't do much good if dad abandoned the kid and mom is just struggling to get by. There's virtually no disincentive to breaking school rules. Unless the money is going to straightjackets, it's a complete waste. Kids are better off in a private Catholic school full of ruler-wielding nuns.

[joecct]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Spend all you want on education, but nothing will change if students continue to not pay attention in the classroom. Teachers have virtually no control over students. The disrespect shown to teachers by students is unbelievable. And what can schools do about it? Can't damage their fragile self esteem. So can they tell the parents? Doesn't do much good if dad abandoned the kid and mom is just struggling to get by. There's virtually no disincentive to breaking school rules. Unless the money is going to straightjackets, it's a complete waste. Kids are better off in a private Catholic school full of ruler-wielding nuns.

The nuns left in the 70's. Another V-II casualty along with corporal punishment and eraser targeting.

There was a political cartoon the other day showing a comparison between bad grades in 1969 and today. In 1969, the parents were holding their child accountable. Now - it's the teacher's fault.

[5mn_Major]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Spend all you want on education, but nothing will change if students continue to not pay attention in the classroom. Teachers have virtually no control over students. The disrespect shown to teachers by students is unbelievable. And what can schools do about it? Can't damage their fragile self esteem. So can they tell the parents? Doesn't do much good if dad abandoned the kid and mom is just struggling to get by. There's virtually no disincentive to breaking school rules. Unless the money is going to straightjackets, it's a complete waste. Kids are better off in a private Catholic school full of ruler-wielding nuns.

Sure, students (and parents) are responsible for their education. Its the way its always been. But so are schools/teachers. What you say is true, even so both family and education/training aren't anything less than society's top two priorities.

[Kepler]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Sure, students (and parents) are responsible for their education. Its the way its always been. But so are schools/teachers. What you say is true, even so both family and education/training aren't anything less than society's top two priorities.

Education should always be the top priority -- it drives everything else (poverty, health, crime, social spending, worker productivity). The owner/employee dichotomy of the 19th century really doesn't apply anymore outside of low skill labor, but our government and our ruling class just hasn't caught on yet. The German miracle was an education miracle. So was Korea's. If you want a high skill labor force you have to pay a ton of money to educate them both directly and also indirectly by pulling up the entire class of multi-generational poor who don't support their own kids' education.

Women are the key. Mothers don't want their kids to fail. Educate women, give them free child care so they can work, stop punishing and stigmatizing them for their no-good men walking out on them, give them full unhindered reproductive freedoms and contraception so they can control their number of children. Basically, give them all the advantages nice white middle class women have, and they'll be just as fierce advocates of their own childrens' welfare (probably moreso since they won't be entitled).

This is something both the left (welfare, education) and the right (Kinder, Küche, Kirche) should be able to work together on.

[Bob Gray]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Spend all you want on education, but nothing will change if students continue to not pay attention in the classroom. Teachers have virtually no control over students. The disrespect shown to teachers by students is unbelievable. And what can schools do about it? Can't damage their fragile self esteem. So can they tell the parents? Doesn't do much good if dad abandoned the kid and mom is just struggling to get by. There's virtually no disincentive to breaking school rules. Unless the money is going to straightjackets, it's a complete waste. Kids are better off in a private Catholic school full of ruler-wielding nuns.

So true. I know a number of folks who were good teachers and loved the job, but between dealing with unruly kids (with parents back up the kids) and so much bureaucracy that they can't focus on teach much of the time, they've had it and leave the profession. Can't say I blame them.

[Kepler]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

So true. I know a number of folks who were good teachers and loved the job, but between dealing with unruly kids (with parents back up the kids) and so much bureaucracy that they can't focus on teach much of the time, they've had it and leave the profession. Can't say I blame them.

Of course, those demanding Draconian cuts in school budgets, demonizing teachers as unionized layabouts, and generally pouring acid on the idea of public service not primarily motivated by greed, are not in any way to blame.

[FreshFish]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

School vouchers were just a way to get taxpayers to foot the bill for Cheney's grandchildren going to Choat.

Big difference between "were" and "are." (the 1990s called, they want their prejudices back).

Whether you look at charter schools in NY (not "voucher" per se, yet a strong alternative to traditional public school system), the DC voucher system, the Milwaukee voucher system, or the state of LA voucher system, the majority of beneficiaries TODAY are poor and minority students.

The crux of the court ruling in CA was that "funding" was not the issue, it was the disparity in teacher quality between well-to-do school districts and school districts that serve primarily poor and minority students. Work rules make it nearly impossible to reward good teachers and shed substandard teachers, and so the "sideways promotion" exit strategy was used instead: the substandard teachers wind up disproportionately in school districts that primarily serve poor and minority students.

Trying to reform work rules in public school systems involves intractable union opposition to any changes at all. Children's futures are at stake, can we really consign yet another generation to sub-standard teaching?

[Kepler]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Trying to reform work rules in public school systems involves intractable union opposition to any changes at all. Children's futures are at stake, can we really consign yet another generation to sub-standard teaching?

Teaching is substandard because salaries are low, teachers are treated like garbage, and neighborhoods with no tax base are the source of the funding for the schools that are supposed to lift the population out of poverty.

But by your sincere alarm and honest concern I know you will be willing to foot the bill for the resources required. See my other post for optimal tax brackets. We'll take a check.

A Republican fretting (oh so publicly) about children is one of those images that's too rich for parody.

[Bob Gray]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Of course, those demanding Draconian cuts in school budgets, demonizing teachers as unionized layabouts, and generally pouring acid on the idea of public service not primarily motivated by greed, are not in any way to blame.

Not compared to the stuff I cite, at least from the variety of current and former teachers I know, including a handful of relatives.

[FreshFish]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Teaching is substandard because salaries are low.

Where are you located? Teachers in NY and CT have better-than average salaries, even before you factor in their far-better-than average fringe benefit packages.

That's the problem when you generalize too broadly: it doesn't always fit the actual facts.

[Rover]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Teachers on average don't get paid a lot of money from my personal experience with them. To me the biggest complaint I hear is class size. Keeping an eye on 40+ little bahstids every class is a bit much for even the best of teachers.

The problem with teacher evaluations is what people have brought up, namely the quality of students. In public schools if you get indifferent kids who only occasionally show up for class and parents who can't be bothered, why should you get sh !t canned because of that? Its not your job to parent the kids.

I'm all for teacher evaluations, but I just haven't seen a good system for ranking them over time.

[Bob Gray]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Teachers on average don't get paid a lot of money from my personal experience with them. To me the biggest complaint I hear is class size. Keeping an eye on 40+ little bahstids every class is a bit much for even the best of teachers.

The problem with teacher evaluations is what people have brought up, namely the quality of students. In public schools if you get indifferent kids who only occasionally show up for class and parents who can't be bothered, why should you get sh !t canned because of that? Its not your job to parent the kids.

I'm all for teacher evaluations, but I just haven't seen a good system for ranking them over time.

Agreed that it's tough to find a good way to rank teachers. We all know who were our good teachers and bad teachers as we went through school, but to capture that in some quantifiable way is no easy endeavor.

My experience in talking to teachers is that they aren't paid a whole lot, but they aren't paid that bad. It's ok, and if as a society we valued teachers instead of athletes and other such professions, teachers would be compensated better. Undoubtedly if the job paid better, you'd see some increase in the quality of teachers, but that still wouldn't address numerous ills that hamper public education.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Agreed that it's tough to find a good way to rank teachers. We all know who were our good teachers and bad teachers as we went through school, but to capture that in some quantifiable way is no easy endeavor.

My experience in talking to teachers is that they aren't paid a whole lot, but they aren't paid that bad. It's ok, and if as a society we valued teachers instead of athletes and other such professions, teachers would be compensated better. Undoubtedly if the job paid better, you'd see some increase in the quality of teachers, but that still wouldn't address numerous ills that hamper public education.

Most of the ills are centered around our insistence that everyone is equal and the same when we all know they are not.

In fact that is nothing more arrogant than legislation called "No Child Left Behind".

[Rover]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Agreed that it's tough to find a good way to rank teachers. We all know who were our good teachers and bad teachers as we went through school, but to capture that in some quantifiable way is no easy endeavor.

My experience in talking to teachers is that they aren't paid a whole lot, but they aren't paid that bad. It's ok, and if as a society we valued teachers instead of athletes and other such professions, teachers would be compensated better. Undoubtedly if the job paid better, you'd see some increase in the quality of teachers, but that still wouldn't address numerous ills that hamper public education.

I dated a teacher a long time ago, and she was upfront about knowing that she'd never be well off, but didn't mind. Obviously an altruistic person, which maybe you could figure out if she was going out with me.

Having said that, I don't get some of the solutions thrown about. I have no problem whatsoever with vouchers. The problem is, they will have an extremely small impact on the problem. In my region growing up, there were probably 10,000 public high school students (excluding the vocational schools). There were two private high schools, both Catholic, in the region. So the question becomes, how much capacity did those two schools have if you instituted vouchers, and how easy would it be to even get to these schools every morning for class even if you did get a voucher as some kids could be a good 20 miles away. I doubt those schools could take in much more than 100 kids, out of the 10,000 total in the region. Massachusetts is a pretty compact state. How would this work in Kansas or Alaska?

Same thing with unions. I really don't care about them as I don't know anybody in one. However, say you eliminate teachers unions tomorrow. How does that help in assessing who's a good teacher or not? Answer: it does nothing for that one way or the other. So what's the point? Say they're all outlawed. Is it still fair to fire teachers in classrooms with absent parents and indifferent students?