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  • #76
    Originally posted by Still Eeyore View Post
    Not really. Shelfit is expressing an opinion that graduate transfers shouldn't be considered transfers, an opinion that I happen to agree with, but the NCAA disagrees with us on that:



    So, the graduate transfer rules are somewhat different than those for other transfers, but it's still the same basic framework.

    More importantly for the purposes of this discussion, some of the posters think that these still constitute transfers.
    Basically the official paperwork is about getting an athletic release from your undergraduate institution in order to move forward and be an athlete at your new grad school. The point remains that it is not the same as the stereotypical and much more common transfer student that is still an undergrad going from one school to another while still pursuing their bachelor's degree.

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    • #77
      Re: Transfers thread

      Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
      Some unfortunate just tweeted they switched from one ugly maroon and gold team to another. Can't these eastern schools just recruit better instead of raiding the B3?
      Maybe the Non-Easternschools should improve the academics at those institutions.

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: Transfers thread

        Originally posted by shelfit View Post
        ...once a student-athlete has completed her undergraduate degree, she has also completed her commitment to whatever sports team(s) she has played for and been loyal to through graduation at that particular school. She no longer owes that team any further commitment or loyalty.
        This is pretty much my opinion on post-grad transfers, too, in a nutshell.

        As shelfit said, she's done her time at her original school, finished her degree, and now she's basically a free agent. I say thanks for your time and commitment, and best of luck in the future.

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        • #79
          Re: Transfers thread

          Originally posted by Still Eeyore View Post
          So, your defense is that your comment had nothing whatsoever to do with the actual subject of the thread and was just included for no real reason? Color me deeply skeptical about that. It looks like an attempt to dodge the obvious meaning of what you meant, which is that the loyalty of athletes that transfer is suspect. Worth noting is that that sentence was not the only mention of loyalty in the post I quoted. There was also, "Immediate play transfers also rub me the wrong way. It's yet another case where individual self-interest takes absolute priority over "old fashioned" values like loyalty."

          You are very clearly implicating the loyalty of the athletes, and are now misrepresenting your statements in order to backtrack.
          Not backtracking. My opinion continues to be that our society tends to undervalue loyalty. However: I do not believe that athletes are worse than other groups, and I didn't say that. In fact, athletes value loyalty more than other groups. At least that was my experience at the modest levels I competed at. More on that below.

          All of us are members of groups, not just athletes. Within those groups, each of us has every right to act in our self-interest. I have no problem with concept of putting on one's own oxygen mask before attempting to assist others. Saying that people act in their self-interest isn't an insult or an attack, it's a description of reality. Get angry and defensive if you want. But these days most people openly take pride in acting in their self-interest.

          It's inevitable that self-interest will play a role. The only question is how much.

          It's equally self-evident that our individual actions can impact others in the group/company/team. All I've asked is that impact be given some consideration; that self-interest not be the only relevant variable. Asking people to open their minds and consider other factors? Perhaps a challenge, but definitely not an attack.

          I don't regard my posts on this thread as perfectly crafted. But I most certainly did not call out any individual athlete for transferring. And if my attitude toward athletes as a group was somehow unclear before, the above clarification should satisfy any fair-minded reader.

          Of course you are not a fair-minded reader.


          ...The real issue, though, is in the attitude that a significant minority of sports fans take towards athletes. This is not limited to college sports, though it is most noxious there. Your invocation of sports as an "escape from the business world" in the context of a discussion about an athlete's obligations and holding them to a higher standard is a prime example. It ignores the fact that, for the athletes, sports is the business world. All of the things that you feel that they should help you escape from are an inescapable piece of what sports is for them. Your plea that athletes hold themselves to a "higher standard than would be required by most other endeavors" is a plea that they set aside their own interests in ways that people do not do elsewhere, in order to reduce the stress in your life.

          Stop thinking that making sports an escape from the business world is in any way their responsibility, because it isn't and arguments that it should be inherently mean that you think that you have a claim on their behavior. If you want sports to play that role in your life, then it is up to you to extract it.
          You are wildly wrong about my motivation for being involved in sports. Not that I gave you enough information to draw legitimate conclusions on that point; I didn't. But again, you just assume whatever you want because you like knocking over the straw man.

          When I've participated in sports, one of my favorite things about it was the bond between teammates, during competition and otherwise. When I've participated as player's parent, I've taken a lot of satisfaction in supporting the whole team, not just my own kid. In other words, cheering for the other players; sharing the experience with the other parents. But believe me, stress relief has nothing to do with it. Being a player's parent has proven to be much more stressful than being an athlete ever was. And yet, I love it.

          I understand & fully accept that the connection with a D-1 athlete is much more limited than with a family member. For my part, I don't make any effort to pal around with the Buckeye players or their parents. And yet, I care about the quality of their experience, and support them within the limits of the role I've chosen.

          Maintaining a connection to a world where teammates and loyalty still count for something is my escape; that's the element I'm trying to protect. I want today's kids to have the same positive experience I had -- be they family members in high school sports or D-1 Buckeyes. Is that really so evil?

          That's something truly worth defending, IMHO. But you seem utterly detached from what I feel is central to the experience. On this last point, I'm not offended. Baffled would be more like it.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by pgb-ohio View Post
            Not backtracking. My opinion continues to be that our society tends to undervalue loyalty. However: I do not believe that athletes are worse than other groups, and I didn't say that. In fact, athletes value loyalty more than other groups. At least that was my experience at the modest levels I competed at. More on that below.

            All of us are members of groups, not just athletes. Within those groups, each of us has every right to act in our self-interest. I have no problem with concept of putting on one's own oxygen mask before attempting to assist others. Saying that people act in their self-interest isn't an insult or an attack, it's a description of reality. Get angry and defensive if you want. But these days most people openly take pride in acting in their self-interest.

            It's inevitable that self-interest will play a role. The only question is how much.

            It's equally self-evident that our individual actions can impact others in the group/company/team. All I've asked is that impact be given some consideration; that self-interest not be the only relevant variable. Asking people to open their minds and consider other factors? Perhaps a challenge, but definitely not an attack.

            I don't regard my posts on this thread as perfectly crafted. But I most certainly did not call out any individual athlete for transferring. And if my attitude toward athletes as a group was somehow unclear before, the above clarification should satisfy any fair-minded reader.

            Of course you are not a fair-minded reader.


            You are wildly wrong about my motivation for being involved in sports. Not that I gave you enough information to draw legitimate conclusions on that point; I didn't. But again, you just assume whatever you want because you like knocking over the straw man.

            When I've participated in sports, one of my favorite things about it was the bond between teammates, during competition and otherwise. When I've participated as player's parent, I've taken a lot of satisfaction in supporting the whole team, not just my own kid. In other words, cheering for the other players; sharing the experience with the other parents. But believe me, stress relief has nothing to do with it. Being a player's parent has proven to be much more stressful than being an athlete ever was. And yet, I love it.

            I understand & fully accept that the connection with a D-1 athlete is much more limited than with a family member. For my part, I don't make any effort to pal around with the Buckeye players or their parents. And yet, I care about the quality of their experience, and support them within the limits of the role I've chosen.

            Maintaining a connection to a world where teammates and loyalty still count for something is my escape; that's the element I'm trying to protect. I want today's kids to have the same positive experience I had -- be they family members in high school sports or D-1 Buckeyes. Is that really so evil?

            That's something truly worth defending, IMHO. But you seem utterly detached from what I feel is central to the experience. On this last point, I'm not offended. Baffled would be more like it.
            You two guys need to get a room (or at least start a separate thread for just the two of you)! Your love-hate relationship reminds me too much of a couple of my former teammates....not a good situation. Not to mention that your posts are now far too long (long-winded) to bother reading fully or at all anymore.

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Transfers thread

              Originally posted by pgb-ohio View Post
              It's equally self-evident that our individual actions can impact others in the group/company/team. All I've asked is that impact be given some consideration; that self-interest not be the only relevant variable. Asking people to open their minds and consider other factors? Perhaps a challenge, but definitely not an attack.
              No, that is not all that you've asked. You have asked that athletes hold themselves to a higher standard than people elsewhere. You are transferring your ideal about what sports should be and imposing it on them. You are correct that it is true that everyone, barring some of those who own a sole proprietorship with no employees or investors, has others who are counting them on the job. That was the genesis of my original post to the effect that the people criticizing the idea of transferring are likely throwing rocks out of glass houses. I don't disagree with a single thing you've written in this post up to this point. The problem is that it contradicts what you have written in several other posts.

              You are wildly wrong about my motivation for being involved in sports. Not that I gave you enough information to draw legitimate conclusions on that point; I didn't. But again, you just assume whatever you want because you like knocking over the straw man.
              I'm going with what you have written. You're the one who wrote, "Immediate play transfers also rub me the wrong way. It's yet another case where individual self-interest takes absolute priority over "old fashioned" values like loyalty," which is vastly less nuanced than what you said above. You may claim that you haven't attacked any individual transferring, but that's only because you attacked all of them. You are the one who decided that the word "absolute" belonged in that sentence, with the inescapable implication that the transferring athletes lack loyalty.

              You're the one who wrote, "But an immediate play transfer? Setting aside current loyalties in that circumstance feels just a little too easy," which undercuts the disclaimer you made at the start of that same paragraph and which you later cited.

              You're the one who wrote, "But loyalty to teammates should factor into these decisions," which implies that the athlete looking to transfer doesn't factor it in.

              You're the one who wrote, "Even fans, who give up whole weekends at time to support their team, deserve a little consideration," which started the argument that this is at all about you.

              You're the one who wrote, "I am suggesting that they hold themselves to a slightly higher standard than would be required by most other endeavors. But I've always believed that sports should be a bit of an escape from the business world. A place where concepts like team and loyalty continue to matter . . ." which means that the athletes have some sort of obligation to relieve your disappointment with the rest of the world.

              If none of that is what you meant to say, the problem isn't that your posts aren't perfect. It's that they consistently send a very different message than what you intended. You should probably stop to think about what it is that you want to say before plunging in.

              That's something truly worth defending, IMHO. But you seem utterly detached from what I feel is central to the experience. On this last point, I'm not offended. Baffled would be more like it.
              It isn't so much that I'm detached from what you feel is central to the experience as it is that I think that what you (or I; after all, I wrote a novel whose basic thesis isn't very far off from what you're laying out here) feel is central to the experience is an inappropriate way to judge athletes who transfer to another school. Your posts are long on what you think is important. They're long on what you think sports are about. They're long on what you think are problems with the world in general. They're long on trying to protect what you see as an escape. You want today's kids to have a positive experience as you define it.

              What your posts are really short on is letting the athletes decide for themselves what is important and what makes for a positive experience for them. I respect that you don't get to know the players; I'm the same way. But that means that both of us are completely out of touch with them, and that it's presumptuous of us to make judgments as to what they want. (I strongly suspect that the fans who do think that they've gotten to know the players are kidding themselves and aren't any better informed about this than we are.) Stop making this about yourself, and let the athletes decide for themselves. If that kills what makes sports meaningful for you, then you need to find a different escape.
              Last edited by Still Eeyore; 07-12-2018, 04:34 AM.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Transfers thread

                Originally posted by wildcatcard View Post
                Maybe the Non-Easternschools should improve the academics at those institutions.
                The word on the street was that Cianfarano couldn't get into WI academically (where she had originally committed to), so she ended up @ Q.....just the word on the street as to why she decommitted from UW and went to Q.
                Wisconsin Hockey: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 WE WANT MORE!
                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Come to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
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                Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton:
                "Baggot says Hughes and Rockwood are centering the top two lines...
                Timothy A --> Great hockey mind... Or Greatest hockey mind?!?"

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                • #83
                  Re: Transfers thread

                  I think someone mentioned it awhile back in the loyalty discussion about coaches remaining loyal to players. Nothing about college athletics bothers me more than when a coach recruits a player, has them commit, then for whatever reason pushes them aside and tells them to go somewhere else. This is prior to playing for the team.
                  Wisconsin Hockey: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 WE WANT MORE!
                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Come to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton:
                  "Baggot says Hughes and Rockwood are centering the top two lines...
                  Timothy A --> Great hockey mind... Or Greatest hockey mind?!?"

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Transfers thread

                    Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
                    The word on the street was that Cianfarano couldn't get into WI academically (where she had originally committed to), so she ended up @ Q.....just the word on the street as to why she decommitted from UW and went to Q.
                    And if that was the case, maybe 4 years at Quinnipiac made her a more committed student and she proved those at this "BIG3" school to be wrong.
                    Fan of CLARKSON: 2014, 2017 & 2018 NC$$ WOMEN'S DIV 1 HOCKEY NATIONAL CHAMPIONS *******https://fanforum.uscho.com/core/images/smilies/smile.gi*********
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                    • #85
                      Re: Transfers thread

                      Since this is a transfer thread, what's up with Agnew transferring to BC ??

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                      • #86
                        Re: Transfers thread

                        Originally posted by slapshot willy View Post
                        Since this is a transfer thread, what's up with Agnew transferring to BC ??
                        IMO, that is a transfer that makes sense. I'm sure that her two seasons at Minnesota didn't go the way that she had envisioned, so a new start in different surroundings is likely a good choice. She still appears to be on her country's national team radar despite never emerging as a top-line player for the Gophers, so if she has post-NCAA dreams, another route might be a better way to reach them.

                        I agree with what others have said about an advanced degree from a different institution often being viewed as better than two degrees from the same school; so why don't we see more transfers from players who have earned their degree? One factor is that they typically only have one year of eligibility left, so they may not see a benefit in uprooting their hockey careers for one season. The other does hinge on loyalty, but I think it is more loyalty to teammates than the program. The student/athlete has completed a commitment to the program; she came, and she earned a degree. If her studies were over, she would be done playing. So that is a clean break. I believe that the majority of the players have come to view their teammates as a second family, and they would feel strangely about switching families after sharing so much.
                        "... And lose, and start again at your beginnings
                        And never breathe a word about your loss;" -- Rudyard Kipling

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Transfers thread

                          Originally posted by shelfit View Post
                          You two guys need to get a room (or at least start a separate thread for just the two of you)! Your love-hate relationship reminds me too much of a couple of my former teammates....not a good situation. Not to mention that your posts are now far too long (long-winded) to bother reading fully or at all anymore.
                          HaHa. Not spot on, but you definitely make some good points.

                          1. Years ago I got off on the wrong foot with Eeyore, and there's never been anything remotely resembling "love."

                          2. But more importantly, I hope it never rises to the level of "hate." This latest round proves anew that I can't productively connect with him -- no matter how much effort I put into it. And yet, he loves hockey. Of that I have no doubt. He's just a brother from a different planet.

                          3. You're right to suggest that Eeyore & I would be terrible as teammates. The mutual frustration would be a locker room cancer.

                          4. You're also correct on the long-winded thing. Redoubling one's efforts with Eeyore is futile. And futility is a failing. I'll do better.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: Transfers thread

                            Originally posted by ARM View Post
                            ...I agree with what others have said about an advanced degree from a different institution often being viewed as better than two degrees from the same school; so why don't we see more transfers from players who have earned their degree? One factor is that they typically only have one year of eligibility left, so they may not see a benefit in uprooting their hockey careers for one season. The other does hinge on loyalty, but I think it is more loyalty to teammates than the program. The student/athlete has completed a commitment to the program; she came, and she earned a degree. If her studies were over, she would be done playing. So that is a clean break. I believe that the majority of the players have come to view their teammates as a second family, and they would feel strangely about switching families after sharing so much.
                            I agree completely. And your version is admirably concise.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by pgb-ohio View Post
                              I agree completely. And your version is admirably concise.
                              Sorry but teammates are like hometown friends, eventually some make the decision to leave them. Life goes on. Both girls lived up to their commitments and have moved on for whatever reason. It’s their business. All the best to both of them.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: Transfers thread

                                Originally posted by vicb View Post
                                And if that was the case, maybe 4 years at Quinnipiac made her a more committed student and she proved those at this "BIG3" school to be wrong.
                                other word on the street that not all of this year had to do with injury.

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