A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

[Bob Gray]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Yup, only send federal troops to secure the border in states that have high enough state tax rates. That sounds reasonable. Some people really do like and want big brother to control all.

[5mn_Major]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Yup, only send federal troops to secure the border in states that have high enough state tax rates. That sounds reasonable. Some people really do like and want big brother to control all.

Not necessarily. Many states in the north have a high state tax burden in large part due to the weather. If cold weather was a recent phenomena...many states in the north would go to the feds begging for national assistance (and probably get it). But frankly I think its appropriate that the north in general pays higher state taxes due to cold. Not only this, but many states such as MN have also been subsidizing the undue portions other state challenges that they themselves are not financing. Texas is a rich state. The feds carry most of the burden, but Texas will need to carry an undue amount of this burden themselves and they would wise to make it a zero tolerance issue.

[unofan]

Perry's sending a thousand troops to the Mexico border. Feds should do it...but states should also pay their fair share of the overall tax burden. I'd rather not hear 'we need more federal border troops...and see, we have no state income tax' in the same sentence.

Perry is nothing if not shameless. This is the guy who cut state firefighting funding then whined that the feds were not helping enough when it had the worst wildfire season in history. And he topped it off by asking the population to pray for rain. Apparently not a believer in the whole "the Lord helps those who help themselves" philosophy, at least when it comes to fighting fires.

[Kepler]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Perry is nothing if not shameless. This is the guy who cut state firefighting funding then whined that the feds were not helping enough when it had the worst wildfire season in history. And he topped it off by asking the population to pray for rain. Apparently not a believer in the whole "the Lord helps those who help themselves" philosophy, at least when it comes to fighting fires.

This is right out of the Americans for Tax Reform playbook:

1. Cut taxes and services; wait for a crisis.
2. Crisis comes, government unable to respond.
3. Bray "See? Government doesn't work, we told you so!" Go to step 1.

Repeat endlessly. Those guys have been doing this since 1978 -- it's their whole strategy.

[SJHovey]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Not necessarily. Many states in the north have a high state tax burden in large part due to the weather. If cold weather was a recent phenomena...many states in the north would go to the feds begging for national assistance (and probably get it). But frankly I think its appropriate that the north in general pays higher state taxes due to cold. Not only this, but many states such as MN have also been subsidizing the undue portions other state challenges that they themselves are not financing. Texas is a rich state. The feds carry most of the burden, but Texas will need to carry an undue amount of this burden themselves and they would wise to make it a zero tolerance issue.

Texas, as a state, is a mess in many ways. But protection of U.S. borders is a federal issue, and immigration laws are federal, not state, as we all heard a few years ago when Arizona tried to adopt some draconian measures. I'm not sure I want the Texas, Arizona, California and N.M. militias out in force defending the border.

[5mn_Major]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Texas, as a state, is a mess in many ways. But protection of U.S. borders is a federal issue, and immigration laws are federal, not state, as we all heard a few years ago when Arizona tried to adopt some draconian measures. I'm not sure I want the Texas, Arizona, California and N.M. militias out in force defending the border.

Its not a debate on whether borders are fed territory...its a debate on how much feds should pay for as this is paid by other states. And there won't be tons of sympathy if other states have pay an undue amount of border states' day to day bills.

[walrus]

This is right out of the Americans for Tax Reform playbook:

1. Cut taxes and services; wait for a crisis.
2. Crisis comes, government unable to respond.
3. Bray "See? Government doesn't work, we told you so!" Go to step 1.

Repeat endlessly. Those guys have been doing this since 1978 -- it's their whole strategy.

First rule of govt, never have any money left after the year is done. So why would the tax rate matter?

[FreshFish]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

It's like private school vouchers: "you should pay for my preferences." Classic back-door free riding, drizzled in the piquant sauce of bogus self-reliance.

that is one of the most short-sighted and thoughtless comments on this subject i've ever read. where do you think tomorrow's workers are going to come from? public high school graduation rates in our major cities are under 60%! do you want one of those people trying to read your blood pressure?

It's not a 'preference' for all children to have access to a decent, basic, quality education: it is one of the leading civil rights issues of the day. California courts have ruled that public school districts are systematically discriminating against the poor and disadvantaged by disproportionately dumping all the "under-performing" teachers into their schools. In the short run, vouchers are the only way for poor people to escape that discrimination.

and here I thought you were a progressive....


It's a lot cheaper to issue vouchers than it is to reform the public school system.

[Kepler]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

that is one of the most short-sighted and thoughtless comments on this subject i've ever read. where do you think tomorrow's workers are going to come from? public high school graduation rates in our major cities are under 60%! do you want one of those people trying to read your blood pressure?

It's not a 'preference' for all children to have access to a decent, basic, quality education: it is one of the leading civil rights issues of the day. California courts have ruled that public school districts are systematically discriminating against the poor and disadvantaged by disproportionately dumping all the "under-performing" teachers into their schools. In the short run, vouchers are the only way for poor people to escape that discrimination.

and here I thought you were a progressive....


It's a lot cheaper to issue vouchers than it is to reform the public school system.

Bullshit. School vouchers were just a way to get taxpayers to foot the bill for Cheney's grandchildren going to Choat.

We can restore public schools to the level they were at 50 years ago by evening out funding at the state level, rather than having it at the local level which merely perpetuates ghettoization of poor and rich neighborhoods.

I'm a proud public high school graduate and I had an excellent education -- because our district was rolling in dough. Do the same for all districts and we can break the cycle of poverty in one generation.

[Bob Gray]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Its not a debate on whether borders are fed territory...its a debate on how much feds should pay for as this is paid by other states. And there won't be tons of sympathy if other states have pay an undue amount of border states' day to day bills.

So again, if you or whoever judges that a border state isn't paying their fair share (that'll be a barrel of fun arguing over that), then they don't get as good of border security? The feds say it's their issue, but they won't own it and fix it, putting border states in a really bad spot. Perry calling up troops won't do a whole lot, but I can't blame him for doing what he can to get more attention on our continually broken southern border.

[5mn_Major]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

So again, if you or whoever judges that a border state isn't paying their fair share (that'll be a barrel of fun arguing over that), then they don't get as good of border security? The feds say it's their issue, but they won't own it and fix it, putting border states in a really bad spot. Perry calling up troops won't do a whole lot, but I can't blame him for doing what he can to get more attention on our continually broken southern border.

That's the crux of it. There is no objective mark on how much border security. The feds could probably do more...but its finite.

Border states should definitely be doing much more...which could be much less finite. But this appears to be another race to the bottom where border state elected officials are competing to see who can spend the least to the detriment of local quality of life. Couple that with border states allowing for free access to guns...and I would be very nervous for the future of those regions.

[Bob Gray]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

That's the crux of it. There is no objective mark on how much border security. The feds could probably do more...but its finite.

Border states should definitely be doing much more...which could be much less finite. But this appears to be another race to the bottom where border state elected officials are competing to see who can spend the least to the detriment of local quality of life. Couple that with border states allowing for free access to guns...and I would be very nervous for the future of those regions.

When border states have tried to do more, it hasn't been well received by the feds in recent years. And if you think states should write a blank check to the feds to pay for border security, letting Obama spend it as he likes, that's simply not going to happen, as there's no reason for border states to trust that Obama would do any better than he has to this point.

One objective measure of border security is that American citizens could go to border areas and be relatively safe, a situation that doesn't exist in large swathes of border states. When the feds tell Americans to stay out of large chunks of border territory, it speaks volumes.

[5mn_Major]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

When border states have tried to do more, it hasn't been well received by the feds in recent years. And if you think states should write a blank check to the feds to pay for border security, letting Obama spend it as he likes, that's simply not going to happen, as there's no reason for border states to trust that Obama would do any better than he has to this point.

One objective measure of border security is that American citizens could go to border areas and be relatively safe, a situation that doesn't exist in large swathes of border states. When the feds tell Americans to stay out of large chunks of border territory, it speaks volumes.

Its simple the federal government is waay over spending...it needs to cut not increase spending. States need to tax more to help out, not race to the bottom. Perry is doing more now. If he's serious, it will last and be expanded.

Edit: when I start to feel tempted to post things I've already posted in the same conversation or see others repeat their points, I sense the conversation is about over.

[Bob Gray]

Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

Its simple the federal government is waay over spending...it needs to cut not increase spending. States need to tax more to help out, not race to the bottom. Perry is doing more now. If he's serious, it will last and be expanded.

Edit: when I start to feel tempted to post things I've already posted in the same conversation or see others repeat their points, I sense the conversation is about over.

So the feds cut back, border security decays even further, and the states are very limited in what they can do, given that border security is fundamentally a federal responsibility. That's a recipe for making things worse while maybe saving a little money short term. That would not be a responsible solution to the situation.

[joecct]

Bullshit. School vouchers were just a way to get taxpayers to foot the bill for Cheney's grandchildren going to Choat.

We can restore public schools to the level they were at 50 years ago by evening out funding at the state level, rather than having it at the local level which merely perpetuates ghettoization of poor and rich neighborhoods.

I'm a proud public high school graduate and I had an excellent education -- because our district was rolling in dough. Do the same for all districts and we can break the cycle of poverty in one generation.

The Obamas are attending a prestigious private school as do most of the Washington elite.