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Thread: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

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    The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Every year this topic is brought up when a program that doesn't offer athletic scholarships makes a run (Cornell and Yale in the past, and this year, Union).

    Is there a bigger farce in college hockey? Does anyone out there still honestly believe that the top players at these schools are paying one cent to go there? No athletic scholarships means no oversight. These schools are free to load students up with all the award packages and aid they can find under any criteria.

    Is that wrong? Nope. But let's can the illusion that these schools are somehow advancing despite a competitive disadvantage.
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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Interesting article on the subject. I don't think any financial aid in the Ivy schools is a full ride like others.

    https://www.yaledailynews.com/news/20...tial-recruits/
    Last edited by LTsatch; 03-30-2012 at 05:33 AM.
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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    I had a friend who played basketball at a "non scholarship" school - the tuition bill never made it from the bursar's office - somehow it got lost!

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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    One thing that the Ivies do is recruit talented people from all sorts of skill sets, not just athletes. There also is competition to lure top-flight musicians to their campus using similar means, and several notable young actresses have enrolled at Ivy League schools too.

    While "financial aid" supposedly is needs-based, there are all sorts of menial jobs that need to be done on campus as well. Who's to say that a person doing 30 minutes of work isn't paid for 2 hours of work?
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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    The myth buster who started this thread claims "No athletic scholarships means no oversight." If true this would be a huge advantage for teams from schools that claim not to give athletic scholarships but in fact do so on the sly, as the myth buster proclaims. What is keeping every college and university from copying the scholarship policies of Cornell, Union, and Yale and reaping the benefits of avoiding regulation? Are we to believe all the schools offering athletic scholarships are too slow-witted, or perhaps too ethical, to emulate the sneaky scholarship policies of Cornell, Union, and Yale?
    This accusation of schools with recognized high academic standards provides no evidence but one person's say-so and assertions which defy common sense. I think there's a dog in the manger.

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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Cant speak for any other school but I know for a fact that Union is 100% need based. done without pushes from the athletic program 100%
    I know several who are top + players paying close to full

    Not true at Union, they do it right
    Last edited by Hokydad; 03-30-2012 at 08:33 AM.

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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Quote Originally Posted by Osorojo View Post
    The myth buster who started this thread claims "No athletic scholarships means no oversight." If true this would be a huge advantage for teams from schools that claim not to give athletic scholarships but in fact do so on the sly, as the myth buster proclaims. What is keeping every college and university from copying the scholarship policies of Cornell, Union, and Yale and reaping the benefits of avoiding regulation? Are we to believe all the schools offering athletic scholarships are too slow-witted, or perhaps too ethical, to emulate the sneaky scholarship policies of Cornell, Union, and Yale?
    This accusation of schools with recognized high academic standards provides no evidence but one person's say-so and assertions which defy common sense. I think there's a dog in the manger.
    Osorojo, this could be the best post of yours I've ever read. Bravo!
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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    One thing that the Ivies do is recruit talented people from all sorts of skill sets, not just athletes. There also is competition to lure top-flight musicians to their campus using similar means, and several notable young actresses have enrolled at Ivy League schools too.

    While "financial aid" supposedly is needs-based, there are all sorts of menial jobs that need to be done on campus as well. Who's to say that a person doing 30 minutes of work isn't paid for 2 hours of work?
    If you have a musically talented child, send them to Yale. A donor left 100 million the Yale University School of Music, so much money that any students attending the music school do so tuition free.
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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    Osorojo, this could be the best post of yours I've ever read. Bravo!
    +1
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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    One thing that the Ivies do is recruit talented people from all sorts of skill sets, not just athletes. There also is competition to lure top-flight musicians to their campus using similar means, and several notable young actresses have enrolled at Ivy League schools too.

    ...
    Yes, but I’d be very surprised if the academic profile of the world class musicians and actresses is the same as the academic profile of the athletes. I doubt that the Ivies have an Academic Index https://home.comcast.net/~charles517/ivyai.html for musicians and actresses so one of them doesn’t bend rules to admit Jodie Foster.

    Let’s also note that many of the Ivy league schools are well funded enough that they can provide 100% of demonstrated need, which many schools cannot do. The disadvantage that the non-scholarship schools have is if they’re trying to recruit a student who’s family is a one percenter. For the kids that are from “Occupy” families, they can compete.

    For me personally, it doesn’t make a difference whether a school gives athletic scholarships or not. It’s a choice they make. It’s only when it’s stated with an air of smug superiority (or when they act like it, like Union did a few years ago) that I find it annoying. I felt the same way about UMTC’s “Minnesota only” practice.
    Last edited by CLS; 03-30-2012 at 09:20 AM. Reason: changed "academic" to "athletic" in the last paragraph

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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Quote Originally Posted by Osorojo View Post
    The myth buster who started this thread claims "No athletic scholarships means no oversight." If true this would be a huge advantage for teams from schools that claim not to give athletic scholarships but in fact do so on the sly, as the myth buster proclaims. What is keeping every college and university from copying the scholarship policies of Cornell, Union, and Yale and reaping the benefits of avoiding regulation? Are we to believe all the schools offering athletic scholarships are too slow-witted, or perhaps too ethical, to emulate the sneaky scholarship policies of Cornell, Union, and Yale?
    This accusation of schools with recognized high academic standards provides no evidence but one person's say-so and assertions which defy common sense. I think there's a dog in the manger.
    I cannot decide if I agree with what you are saying of if I disagree.
    If I agree, this was a wonderful, well written, thoughtful insightful post.

    If I disagree, then you have your head up your butt, you are a knowNothing piece of garbage who needs to get out of his mom's basement and should really get a life.

    ---oh wait, that is the prevailing attitude by all, for all posts on here.

    sorry

    (but paddy, while you are at it, I want you to go after the grossly inflated GPAs of SOME hockey players at hockey east schools and the lower gpas of the hockey players at others... I mean I have attended 4 D1 programs and I can tell you that 2 of the schools have eggregious "give 'em all an A, even if they didn't try" attitudes and the other 2 did not favor athletes -when grading was considered...rape was a different matter-- )

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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    The athletic departments at Geneseo, Potsdam, and Morrisville would likely object to your "no oversight" claim.

    Certainly the student-athletes at non-scholarship schools get significant financial aid. And athletes get help finding every cent of aid for which they qualify. But if that aid in any way favors athletes over non-athletes, the NCAA has shown a willingness and the capability to put a stop to it.


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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Hokydad is correct about Union. Some players pay full freight, some have work study, most if not all pay something. Union does not have the type of money that the Ivies do.

    Also, at Union, the players are NOT afforded any academic slack, other than being able to take proctored exams on the road. The school and the professors expect the same from them as they do from all other students. Some students do great, some less so. It is unrelated to their role on the team. Union is the type of the place where neither the professors or the student body would stand for favoritism of hockey players in class. Keep in mind that Union is a rigorous academic institution, so there are no gimmie majors, and these kids have to work hard to make it in the classroom.

    I assume this thread is related to Union making the Frozen Four. Therefore, everyone should understand that in Union's case, the lack of scholarships IS a big disadvantage, and the kids who play there need to be committeed to work hard in the classroom.

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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    Osorojo, this could be the best post of yours I've ever read. Bravo!
    Well, it helps that it isn't complete jibberish.
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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Quote Originally Posted by Osorojo View Post
    Are we to believe all the schools offering athletic scholarships are too slow-witted, or perhaps too ethical, to emulate the sneaky scholarship policies of Cornell, Union, and Yale?
    No, we're to believe that all of these schools do not have the endowment that the Ivy League schools do... ($$)

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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Quote Originally Posted by CLS View Post
    The disadvantage that the non-scholarship schools have is if they’re trying to recruit a student who’s family is a one percenter. For the kids that are from “Occupy” families, they can compete.
    This made me laugh...it's been a rough day and I needed it! Thanks!

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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Quote Originally Posted by LTsatch View Post
    If you have a musically talented child, send them to Yale. A donor left 100 million the Yale University School of Music, so much money that any students attending the music school do so tuition free.
    If Yale is really waiving tuition for music students regardless of need (which I highly doubt) then they are in complete and total violation of Ivy League rules.
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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    If Yale is really waiving tuition for music students regardless of need (which I highly doubt) then they are in complete and total violation of Ivy League rules.
    From their website
    https://music.yale.edu/admissions/financial.html
    "A full tuition award and fellowship are made to all students who are admitted to the Yale School of Music, with the exception of those receiving awards from other agencies."
    So they're not waiving tuition, they're making an award.

    I got wait-listed there for graduate school, and sometimes since then have had that "what if I'd gotten in / how would my life be different?" feeling. Now, though, it's, "And if I had gotten in, not only would I have $400,000,000 in loans still to pay off, the ******s who go there now have zero tuition!!1!! "

    Last edited by DaveStPaul; 03-30-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Scholarships do matter. My younger brother played football at Dartmouth during the era in which Holy Cross offered scholarships. HC ran their institutional mouth ad nauseum in regards to their record against the Ivies. They had a recruiting advantage. I mean, if you've got the choice of paying for an excellent school yourself or getting a scholarship to a very good school..... At any rate, HC changed conferences or something, and no longer offered scholarships. And their record against the Ivies turned 180 degrees. Immediately.
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    Re: The myth of "non-scholarship" programs

    Quote Originally Posted by LtPowers View Post
    The athletic departments at Geneseo, Potsdam, and Morrisville would likely object to your "no oversight" claim.

    Certainly the student-athletes at non-scholarship schools get significant financial aid. And athletes get help finding every cent of aid for which they qualify. But if that aid in any way favors athletes over non-athletes, the NCAA has shown a willingness and the capability to put a stop to it.


    Powers &8^]
    This is true, for the non-grandfathered D-III play-ups.
    For D-I schools that choose to give no scholarships, it is a different story. The NCAA isn't going to crack down on a school violating its own choice not to give scholarships. As long as they don't break any of the other rules along the way.
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