The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

[cross cheque]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

This is a fact, wether it stings or sounds arrogant really doesn't matter. The University of Minnesota was the catalyst of the sport in MN, thanks to John Mariucci. (I wont sit and argue semantics, I had this debate with the UW folk, when I finally posted Mariucci's HHOF Bio, then I instantly became the arrogant Gopher fan, and most replied "I dont care about the history of the sport). Minnesotas dedication to the growth of the sport by recruiting instate as much as possible is precisely how schools like UND, UM, UW, etc have benifited throughout the years. Minnesota had chosen NOT to go the route of gobbeling up NCAA's via bringing in a bunch of Canadian JR's.

Look at it this way, during the WJ's and you see a handful of Minnesotans on the team, coached by a Minnesotan etc, how do you think that happened? If I were a ND HS Hockey player what would my odds of playing for the team be if the program was notorious for bringing in primarily ONLY Minnesotans or Canucks? Thats not alot of reason to give the sport much effort.

Bill Butters (cut from the same cloth) is recruiting in WI now and leaning alot more on local talent, thats going to take some time but it does work.

People talk alot about 'whats funny" about the Canadian jabs, but they usually fail to mention whats truely ironic, The incessant insulting of the program that ultimately lead to the boom in midwestern hockey. I would and will always gladly support the growth and development of the sport in the US over a couple more NCAA's. I love watching the WJ's and seeing the direct result of that dedication, I enjoy seeing Minnesotans all over the NHL, and Pro teams everywhere.

I'm from a crappy little town (SSP), but chock full of hockey history, Woogs, McAlpines, Housleys, Wilcox, many more. If it wasn;t for Mariucci's dedication, none of that would be there today.

I grew up playing hockey in ND and unfortunately basketball and football have always been the top priority for parents and fans. ND really doesn't have the population to support recruiting only in ND and also didn't have the amount of interest in the sport to create a talent pool deep enough for college hockey. Hockey has been climbing even in my home town when I played if we wanted extra ice time we had to play at our only outdoor rink that had terrible ice and holes in the boards. Now the kids have decent coaching and the hockey club has tons of money to put into the program including paying for shinny hockey 2-3 hours per day for any kids who want to play. I am grateful to the state of Minnesota for all it has done for hockey in the United States and they deserve credit for all of the hard work.

[Ralph Baer]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

Glad to have you back.

If I may make two suggestions (either / or):

Even though you have said you plan to release #2 and #1 on 2/26, ESPN has a running series which seems to be quite popular, "The Top Ten [all sorts of things]". If you followed their format, you'd release #5 and #4 on 2/12, #3 and #2 on 2/19, and #1 on 2/26. There may very well be enough suspense this way too, given that only one team was on all 19 entries.

Otherwise, you simply release #4 and #3 together on 2/19/12 and release #2 and #1 as planned.

I would think that 2 and 1 should be released as planned together. There really won't be much suspense otherwise, since it is hard to believe that 1 and 26 could be confused by many.

[mariucci]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

I grew up playing hockey in ND and unfortunately basketball and football have always been the top priority for parents and fans. ND really doesn't have the population to support recruiting only in ND and also didn't have the amount of interest in the sport to create a talent pool deep enough for college hockey. Hockey has been climbing even in my home town when I played if we wanted extra ice time we had to play at our only outdoor rink that had terrible ice and holes in the boards. Now the kids have decent coaching and the hockey club has tons of money to put into the program including paying for shinny hockey 2-3 hours per day for any kids who want to play. I am grateful to the state of Minnesota for all it has done for hockey in the United States and they deserve credit for all of the hard work.

My son is going to college in SD right now and I worked in the Glacial lakes area for a long time. Loved it. Now on topic, I may be overly opinionated on the subject, I grew up in SSP, my dad was best friends with Woogers, they went to HS together (SSP is a small town), his kids are younger than me, i'm between Housley and Steve Woogs age.. That should give you an idea of my bias. I am of the opinion Colleges should only be allowed a small percentage of non US residents.

I have alot of good friends in ND, and UND alum; Alot of Gopher fans will tell you that a program like UND is whats wrong with college hockey, leaning so heavily on Canucks and treating the sport almost to the degree of pro sports. Most of the ND fans will wear that as a badge of honor.. When I see the Canadians singing "Good Bye" during the World Juniors I get fired up when I see lists such as this that a UND fan created ranking their program so high..

eh, it is what it is, and the one of the best college hockey rivalries ever take the ice this weekend, which I cant believe im not attending for the 1st time in many years. **** it!

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

When I see the Canadians singing "Good Bye" during the World Juniors I get fired up when I see lists such as this that a UND fan created ranking their program so high..

I assume you are talking about the "Greatest Programs" list. I never ranked programs (nor have I for this list). All I have done is compiled a formula, and then filled in that formula for each program/team. I did not rank teams and then build a formula around where I think they should go. FWIW, only a few super-homer Gopher fans feel that North Dakota is too high, and I don't think they really care about the order, only that North Dakota is higher than Minnesota. Of course, you've clearly stated your bias in this post, and in most others, so it does not come as a surprise.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm not a Canadian, and the amount of Canadians on a team/program is not part of the formula.

[mariucci]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

I assume you are talking about the "Greatest Programs" list. I never ranked programs (nor have I for this list). All I have done is compiled a formula, and then filled in that formula for each program/team. I did not rank teams and then build a formula around where I think they should go. FWIW, only a few super-homer Gopher fans feel that North Dakota is too high, and I don't think they really care about the order, only that North Dakota is higher than Minnesota. Of course, you've clearly stated your bias in this post, and in most others, so it does not come as a surprise.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm not a Canadian, and the amount of Canadians on a team/program is not part of the formula.

I'll try and be human and civil if only for the sake of discussion..

As a Gopher fan who truely believes the Gophs have the best tradition in all of College Hockey (not to be mistaken as the best college hockey program), with a dedication to the local growth of the sport by recruiting instate as much as possible..

With that said, here comes an opinion I share with many Minnesota fans.

Bringing in many 20+ yr old Canadians, not only goes against what a Goph fan believes in it gives that program an immediate advantage, with the advantage comes Championships, with Championships comes obnoxious fans. Yeah we have those to, and maybe im being one trying to convey the mass opinion of homegrown hockey supporters. I just dont think championships alone is what makes a program so fantastic. The Canadian route to that degree (11 on the current roster) is a bit much..

Without going further and this turning into another bout of insults, i'll concede with its going to be a greatly missed rivalry, enjoy the games this weekend..

[FreshFish]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

I would think that 2 and 1 should be released as planned together. There really won't be much suspense otherwise, since it is hard to believe that 1 and 26 could be confused by many.

I don't care one way or the other, really, the details on how FS23 releases the names.....that being said, it sounds like you are assuming that by the time we reach the end, 'everyone' will know who are 2 and 1 and the 'only' uncertainty will be over which is which.

Ralph, did you enter the contest? If not, who would be YOUR top five teams?

I was a bit surprised that only one team was on all 19 entries, though there were several teams chosen on 17 entries.

[Happy]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

I assume you are talking about the "Greatest Programs" list. I never ranked programs (nor have I for this list). All I have done is compiled a formula, and then filled in that formula for each program/team. I did not rank teams and then build a formula around where I think they should go. FWIW, only a few super-homer Gopher fans feel that North Dakota is too high, and I don't think they really care about the order, only that North Dakota is higher than Minnesota. Of course, you've clearly stated your bias in this post, and in most others, so it does not come as a surprise.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm not a Canadian, and the amount of Canadians on a team/program is not part of the formula.

But, you are already completely biased because what you like most about UND is what you value in your formulas. You start by favoring factors that UND is ranked high in, and ignore those that they are not. There is no way that UND wasn't going to be higher than anyone than Michigan because you picked it that way from the beginning.

[FreshFish]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

But, you are already completely biased because what you like most about UND is what you value in your formulas. You start by favoring factors that UND is ranked high in, and ignore those that they are not. There is no way that UND wasn't going to be higher than anyone than Michigan because you picked it that way from the beginning.

Setting aside the inflammatory connotations, you might be somewhat accurate, or you might have it backwards....perhaps he starts with the factors he values, and then noticed that UND embodies those factors, and so that is why he became a UND fan?

The formula itself is pretty clear-cut, and you cannot argue much with one component, which values wins. I think the outstanding players part is a bit overweighted, and as far as the greatest programs formula went, i think that one also could incorporate a component related to "level of passion of fan base over time" that could be indirectly measured, but those in the grand scheme are relatively minor quibbles.

at the end the response is bound to be, "okay, YOU write a formula and test it."

No matter who wrote a formula or how, some "bias" is inevitable. If you did not distinguish between the letters and the background upon which they appear, you could not read. You have to make distinctions to find meaning, and no matter how anyone makes distinctions, you are forced to include some things and exclude others.

"bias" is built into the fabric of the universe on the subatomic level (ask Heisenberg!) and on the cosmological level (Anthropic Principle). You cannot eliminate it, the best you can do is acknowledge it. I think FS23 has been open about that.

[FreshFish]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

Thinking a bit further about the concept of "bias" and the potential reply "come up with your own formula then."....

Suppose one responds, "well, we'll keep your formula as far as it goes and then add to it those additional elements we think are important."

As I understand it, the formula emphasizes wins and the development of outstanding players.

Happy, hypothetically, might say "there's no room for tradition. I think we should add 'tradition' as a category too."

Okay, so how do you measure that? "maybe by how long a program has been around."

OKay, so how do you score that? "maybe by taking the current year (2012) and subtracting the first year of the program (1897, say) to get 115.

Fine so do that for all the schools. "umm...okay."

and then along the way our hypothetical Happy notices two things (1) a lot of those Eastern schools have been around a long time too and (2) some of them have gaps in their program. So he decides to refine his 'tradition' score by adding a factor for continuous program duration: 100% for longest stretch of continuous years + 50% of 2nd longest stretch + 25% of third longest stretch, and we add this to the other number to get a total 'tradition' score.

Then we weight FS23's results by some number (say 90%) and the 'tradition' score by 10% (to equal 100%) to get a new series of results, which Happy could call "The Greatest Programs of All Time (when you include tradition)."

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

Thinking a bit further about the concept of "bias" and the potential reply "come up with your own formula then."....

Suppose one responds, "well, we'll keep your formula as far as it goes and then add to it those additional elements we think are important."

As I understand it, the formula emphasizes wins and the development of outstanding players.

Happy, hypothetically, might say "there's no room for tradition. I think we should add 'tradition' as a category too."

Okay, so how do you measure that? "maybe by how long a program has been around."

OKay, so how do you score that? "maybe by taking the current year (2012) and subtracting the first year of the program (1897, say) to get 115.

Fine so do that for all the schools. "umm...okay."

and then along the way our hypothetical Happy notices two things (1) a lot of those Eastern schools have been around a long time too and (2) some of them have gaps in their program. So he decides to refine his 'tradition' score by adding a factor for continuous program duration: 100% for longest stretch of continuous years + 50% of 2nd longest stretch + 25% of third longest stretch, and we add this to the other number to get a total 'tradition' score.

Then we weight FS23's results by some number (say 90%) and the 'tradition' score by 10% (to equal 100%) to get a new series of results, which Happy could call "The Greatest Programs of All Time (when you include tradition)."

It's doable. However, I think you are confusing the greatest teams and greatest programs formulas. They are two separate formulas. That being said, for discussing the Greatest Programs, we really should discuss it in that thread.

As for shaping my formula around what UND is good at, I guess Happy has a point. There was a heavy emphasis on National Championships, Frozen Fours and NCAA success.

[FreshFish]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

It's doable. However, I think you are confusing the greatest teams and greatest programs formulas. They are two separate formulas.

I undedrstand that. I don't "have a horse in that race" so to speak. I was merely tossing out a palliative compromise.

That being said, I am much more engaged in the greatest teams countdown than the greatest programs countdown. To me it is mildly ironic that greatest "teams" are partly scored by the presence of outstanding individual talent, but so what. You laid out the groundrules and I tried to follow them as best I could.

There's too many "bragging rights" or whatever in greatest programs for me to care, as I know my team is nowhere near the top. After all, I went to my first Cubs game when I was just a kid.

As for shaping my formula around what UND is good at, I guess Happy has a point. There was a heavy emphasis on National Championships, Frozen Fours and NCAA success.

of course. i don't think his complaint is related to the criteria you used, I suspect it is based more on criteria you didn't use. Criteria he can sense but not quite articulate never mind try to measure.

I still think one of the best measures of "fan base passion" would be attendance as percentage of undergraduate enrollment, but there is no way to get the data you'd need to measure it. When you have a school with enrollment of 5,200 and average attendence of 3,150 that is a pretty high testimony to the fan base. I've attended road games where the visiting team's fans are about 1/3 of total attendance. If one could measure those two metrics for all teams I definitely would add it to the greatest programs formula, but the data just isn't there.

and as you noted, we are discussing greatest teams here.

BTW glad to have you back.

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

#9 has been released. Here is the link...

http://www.collegehockeyweekly.com/Greatest-Teams.html

Also, here is the link to the updated Leaderboard...

http://www.collegehockeyweekly.com/Leaderboard.html

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

#9 has been released. Here is the link...

http://www.collegehockeyweekly.com/greatest-teams.html

also, here is the link to the updated leaderboard...

http://www.collegehockeyweekly.com/leaderboard.html

#9?!?!?! Booo!

[Siouxfaninseattle]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

#9?!?!?! Booo!

Just what I thought! I picked them higher.

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

#9?!?!?! Booo!

Sorry. I knew you would not be too pleased, but it is important to note that being #9 out of thousands of teams is very impressive.