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2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

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  • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Not shocking that you’re resorting to circular logic.
    Last edited by trixR4kids; 11-15-2019, 01:23 PM.

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    • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

      Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
      As for Kep’s post, assuming that non-white people will just automatically vote for lanyard liberals who do nothing to change the direction the country has gone for 40-50 years probably isn’t a good assumption. We all saw Nancy stuttering like an idiot the other day as she got shouted down by non-white people who want serious immigration reform.
      I did not make that assumption. However, I will make the assumption, now, that whomever POC vote for over the next 50 years, it won't be a white nationalist authoritarian party which differs from South Africa's apartheid regime only by swapping Dutch for Dixie.

      To the extent that Republicans become an attractive choice for POC they will have shed their racism and they won't be nearly so toxic, and this will also moderate their economics. I'm sure there is a good engineering analogy for this, so Mech Es please chime in: the racism of the GOP allows them to carry a much heavier freight of economic neo-feudalism because they are guaranteed to get dog whistle racist white votes regardless of the economic impact. A GOP that is no longer racist has to compete in the marketplace of rational economics, which means they will revert back to their traditional conservative, free trade, neo-liberal roots, as the Democratic party regains the lost ground of traditional Democratic Socialist economics.

      Once both parties have rejected racism the political battle becomes the historically interesting one of super rich/high poverty/cult of individual economic freedom vs income ceilings/low poverty/emphasis on our mutual interdependence as a society. That's what I want the American political battle to be about. For one thing, it doesn't lead to civil wars. For another, both sides have enough of a point that I can at least start thinking that either party conceivably could have my vote, depending on implementation details.

      I want not a dime's worth of difference on social issues. I want Republicans to finally emerge from their social infancy and join the adult world so that we can have smarter and more productive political battles than durr brown immigrants are bad durr. I want an America where race has zero predictive value of political affiliation.
      Last edited by Kepler; 11-15-2019, 01:39 PM.
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      • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

        Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
        Not shocking that you’re resorting to circular logic.
        It was a simple question trix. You want us to get behind a guy (Bernie) who's politics haven't won a Presidential election since....1944? You are adamant that more moderate Dems are certain losers, even though they've won 4 out of the last 7 elections and the popular vote 6 out of 7. Maybe if you could show us some proof of the electoral prospects of a Sanders type candidate you could reassure the rest of us...

        EDIT: Again, Kep, you'll note nary an insult to be found.
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        • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

          We’ve already seen polling indicate that blue dog democrats suppress turnout and more progressive ones increase it. Also we all know how Obama campaigned even if he went back on a lot of his promises.

          Either way the idea that the left not holding power somehow means that they don’t deserve it is circular logic and not exactly shocking coming from you. And the idea that moderate dems being a coin flip in the past 7 elections (one of which was a three way race with Perot) isn’t all that reassuring for someone who actually cares about the direction this country is going.

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          • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

            Originally posted by Rover View Post
            Again, Kep, you'll note nary an insult to be found.
            And that's better, however you guys BOTH keep putting each other on the spot and I don't think that helps. "You want to do this; you advocate this; you said this." When I hear somebody speak that way, even if it's about floral arrangements, my natural instinct is to get my back up and say "stop telling me what I meant, I know it better than you do, oh and by the way go DIAF."

            I think that style promotes the emotional part of the argument rather than the substantive part. My first instinct reading you tends to not be, "let's examine the worth of this argument." It's "oh, you wanna play THAT way, eh? Well," (dons asbestos suit and hoists flamethrower).
            Last edited by Kepler; 11-15-2019, 01:46 PM.
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            • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

              Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
              As for Kep’s post, assuming that non-white people will just automatically vote for lanyard liberals who do nothing to change the direction the country has gone for 40-50 years probably isn’t a good assumption. We all saw Nancy stuttering like an idiot the other day as she got shouted down by non-white people who want serious immigration reform.
              You just can't help yourself.

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              • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

                You literally offer nothing to this thread other than ad Homs directed at me so....

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                • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

                  Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
                  We’ve already seen polling indicate that blue dog democrats suppress turnout and more progressive ones increase it.
                  While this is my instinct I have not seen a really good statistical argument either for it or for the centrist assumption that it's the reverse. Mostly I think people rely on anecdotal evidence, which consists of, for the centrists: McGovern 1972, and for the leftists every other electoral loss of the last 50 years.

                  As I say, I have the same gut instinct as you -- the path to winning for us is GO LEFT. The Republicans showed us that in this ostensibly centrist country they can go literally so far right they merge with fascism and they can still win. Extremism is only bad when it's the other guy. A radical, extremist Left could flourish nationally (and of course in the blue states and compete in the purple) even considering we have to go up against not just conservative voters but also the rich who control the levers of power and the media. But my instinct, same as yours, is the way to win is to be proud, stand up, shout our values, don't apologize, and show voters we are confident and strong and we do not take any sh-t.
                  Last edited by Kepler; 11-15-2019, 01:54 PM.
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                  • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

                    Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
                    You literally offer nothing to this thread other than ad Homs directed at me so....

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                    • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

                      Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                      While this is my instinct I have not seen a really good statistical argument either for it or for the centrist assumption that it's the reverse. Mostly I think people rely on anecdotal evidence, which consists of, for the centrists: McGovern 1972, and for the leftists every other electoral loss of the last 50 years.
                      So I'm going by the assumption of trix that Obama and Clinton are centrists along with Hillary, Gore, Kerry, etc. Only potted plant Kerry lost the popular vote.

                      In the 70's-80's which you and I lived through, centrist Dems went 1 out of 2 (Carter both times) while liberals (McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis) got fuking crushed. That's not my opinion. Those elections were blowouts. So, the historical stats back up Dem moderates vs Dem liberals in terms of winning the Presidency, using trix' definition of who's a centrist. Now of course we'll put in the obvious caveat that past results don't predict the future. However, I'd like some decent evidence that something has changed recently vs...oh I don't know...2012 when corporate conservadem Obama won his 2nd term with 51% of the vote...
                      Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                      Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                      "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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                      • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

                        My opinion, yours may vary:

                        72 McGovern Left Lost
                        76 Carter Center Won
                        80 Carter Center Lost
                        84 Mondale Left Lost
                        88 Dukakis Center Lost
                        92 Clinton Left Won
                        96 Clinton Center Won
                        00 Gore Center Lost
                        04 Kerry Center Lost
                        08 Obama Left Won
                        12 Obama Center Won
                        16 Hillary Center Lost

                        Left: 2-2
                        Center: 3-5

                        I move both Clinton and Obama from Left in their first election for what they ran as to Center in the re-election for their record.

                        I would like to point out, however that since 1984 the record is:

                        Left: 2-0
                        Center: 2-4

                        and both Center wins got into office in the first place by running as Left.
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                        • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

                          Looks like I have a new book to add to The Two Income Trap as the greatest economic textbooks of our time.

                          https://www.amazon.com/Winners-Take-...3855339&sr=8-1

                          Meanwhile, our conservative friends are still reading Fountanhead for their economic ideals.
                          **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                          Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                          Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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                          • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

                            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                            My opinion, yours may vary:

                            72 McGovern Left Lost
                            76 Carter Center Won
                            80 Carter Center Lost
                            84 Mondale Left Lost
                            88 Dukakis Center Lost
                            92 Clinton Left Won
                            96 Clinton Center Won
                            00 Gore Center Lost
                            04 Kerry Center Lost
                            08 Obama Left Won
                            12 Obama Center Won
                            16 Hillary Center Lost

                            Left: 2-2
                            Center: 3-5

                            I move both Clinton and Obama from Left in their first election for what they ran as to Center in the re-election for their record.

                            I would like to point out, however that since 1984 the record is:

                            Left: 2-0
                            Center: 2-4

                            and both Center wins got into office in the first place by running as Left.
                            Doesn't 538 have some semi-objective rating of how a president ran vs. how they governed? I could have sworn they had something like that.
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                            • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

                              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                              My opinion, yours may vary:

                              72 McGovern Left Lost
                              76 Carter Center Won
                              80 Carter Center Lost
                              84 Mondale Left Lost
                              88 Dukakis Center Lost
                              92 Clinton Left Won
                              96 Clinton Center Won
                              00 Gore Center Lost
                              04 Kerry Center Lost
                              08 Obama Left Won
                              12 Obama Center Won
                              16 Hillary Center Lost

                              Left: 2-2
                              Center: 3-5

                              I move both Clinton and Obama from Left in their first election for what they ran as to Center in the re-election for their record.

                              I would like to point out, however that since 1984 the record is:

                              Left: 2-0
                              Center: 2-4

                              and both Center wins got into office in the first place by running as Left.
                              Yeah, I think your thumb's on the scale on a few of these Kep! Duke = centrist? But conservaDems Clinton and Obama were leftists?? Could have fooled me from reading your comments out here.
                              Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                              Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                              "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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                              • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

                                Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                                Doesn't 538 have some semi-objective rating of how a president ran vs. how they governed? I could have sworn they had something like that.
                                Most presidents are moderated after the election. It (was) the nature of the office, and need to compromise with a Congress that usually had a different agenda, even when one party controlled both branches.
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