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Thread: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    You're gonna have to make that an Amex card for the Millennial and Gen Z set.
    If anyone here watches "American Gods" (tv series) this image is more hilarious than you know. It was covered midway in the 2nd season, and it's dam true.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rube View Post
    If anyone here watches "American Gods" (tv series) this image is more hilarious than you know. It was covered midway in the 2nd season, and it's dam true.
    In 1933, Roosevelt took the United States off the Gold Standard, right? Yeah, so? So, you can't just go into a bank and redeem money for gold or silver.
    You said money is the most powerful god in America.
    But money isn't actually worth anything.
    I have a piece of paper, hm? But I want this salt shaker.
    You have the salt shaker, but you're willing to take my piece of paper for your salt shaker.
    Now, why would you do that? Because this isn't actually a piece of paper; it's a story.
    And the story that you've heard over and over and over again.
    And it's been drummed into you that this is worth something.
    This is of value.
    No matter what country, culture, or religion.
    The whole world loves money.
    The greatest story ever told.
    So, Money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mookie1995 View Post
    So after that it was only by choice
    As it should be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    As it should be.
    Always

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Obviously, because a door stop is better.

    The question is whether he is better than other Democratic candidates.
    When you say ďbetterĒ do you mean better in who you agree with most on policy? Or better chance of beating trump?

    IMO the only thing that really matters is who has the best chance of winning, regardless in the nuances of their policy ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ticapnews View Post
    Anything is possible but the only front-runner who would want him is Biden. If Biden were the nominee a black VP candidate would be attractive, but MA is a given. Better to choose Andrew Gillum in hopes that he can help bring Florida's 29 electoral votes into the blue column. That's what Warren might be doing.
    Gillum may just be the perfect VP choice for any of them.

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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Quote Originally Posted by ericredaxe View Post
    When you say “better” do you mean better in who you agree with most on policy? Or better chance of beating trump?

    IMO the only thing that really matters is who has the best chance of winning, regardless in the nuances of their policy ideas.
    I know longer believe we can predict who has a better chance based on policy. I think it has to do with a variety of characteristics, mostly having nothing to do with governance, the most important being charisma. So, for example, if you gave me two twins to choose from, one a frothing Leftist and one a centrist, I would choose the Leftist because why not have good policy?

    I believe the idea that Dems can't run a Democratic Socialist and win because it alienates more people than it brings in is a toxin which, however it got into our bloodstream, we need to counteract. It certainly serves the interests of TPTB. Meanwhile, when we run nice safe centrists we get destroyed.

    So for me, "better" means "has the political skills to win." Clinton. Obama. Highly political creatures and tuned perfectly for their time. So, who is that today? Buttigieg is a great candidate for the center lane. I'd have said Harris was one, but I was clearly wrong. So at this point I think it's a question of finding a strong left channel candidate and slugging it out. The choices are Warren and Sanders. I think they are both excellent political candidates, but Warren may be too easy for the Nazis to put the Hillary stink on. That leaves the old, heart attacked, Mad Magazine parody of Al Lewis channeling Eugene V. Debs.

    As God is my witness, if I had to choose the best person to go up against Dump today, it would be...

    Last edited by Kepler; 11-15-2019 at 10:27 AM.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Wouldnt "better" be best defined as "candidate with the best opportunity to win"?
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Winning needs to be defined as longer than one election cycle because weíve seen enough instances of dems getting into power, doing nothing or going against a lot of what they campaigned on, and a huge red wave cycle in the other direction, potentially with another clown fascist cherry on top.

    If Biden wins we can just about guarantee that happening.

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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    Winning needs to be defined as longer than one election cycle because we’ve seen enough instances of dems getting into power, doing nothing or going against a lot of what they campaigned on, and a huge red wave cycle in the other direction, potentially with another clown fascist cherry on top.

    If Biden wins we can just about guarantee that happening.
    Biden would be another holding action while we wait for demography to do its work. It is certainly not ideal and a passionate, activist liberal would be far preferable. However, always remember, time is on our side (yes it is). Even Biden caretaking like a sundowning Reagan is an ENORMOUS improvement over the status quo. And in the background, tick tock:

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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Biden would be another holding action while we wait for demography to do its work. It is certainly not ideal and a passionate, activist liberal would be far preferable. However, always remember, time is on our side (yes it is). Even Biden caretaking like a sundowning Reagan is an ENORMOUS improvement over the status quo.
    This is something that trix never understands. If you think things are bad now, wait until you get another 4 years of Chump. The country will be unrecognizable.

    I too am not a fan of Zombie Joe Biden and his Undead Campaign (it can't be killed, but it doesn't really do anything). However, the dude will stop pursing Nazi/KKK policies and not embarrass this country all over the world. No dropping to his knees whenever a dictator walks by. Given all that, sign me up for Zombiemania.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Just keep repeating to yourself:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    This is something that trix never understands. If you think things are bad now, wait until you get another 4 years of Chump. The country will be unrecognizable.
    Except Iím the one who has a serious proposal to avoid it and is proposing we do something different. You arenít.

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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    As for Kepís post, assuming that non-white people will just automatically vote for lanyard liberals who do nothing to change the direction the country has gone for 40-50 years probably isnít a good assumption. We all saw Nancy stuttering like an idiot the other day as she got shouted down by non-white people who want serious immigration reform.

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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    Except Iím the one who has a serious proposal to avoid it and is proposing we do something different. You arenít.
    Remind me again when the last time a Dem you approved of won a Presidential election?
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Not shocking that youíre resorting to circular logic.
    Last edited by trixR4kids; 11-15-2019 at 02:23 PM.

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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    As for Kep’s post, assuming that non-white people will just automatically vote for lanyard liberals who do nothing to change the direction the country has gone for 40-50 years probably isn’t a good assumption. We all saw Nancy stuttering like an idiot the other day as she got shouted down by non-white people who want serious immigration reform.
    I did not make that assumption. However, I will make the assumption, now, that whomever POC vote for over the next 50 years, it won't be a white nationalist authoritarian party which differs from South Africa's apartheid regime only by swapping Dutch for Dixie.

    To the extent that Republicans become an attractive choice for POC they will have shed their racism and they won't be nearly so toxic, and this will also moderate their economics. I'm sure there is a good engineering analogy for this, so Mech Es please chime in: the racism of the GOP allows them to carry a much heavier freight of economic neo-feudalism because they are guaranteed to get dog whistle racist white votes regardless of the economic impact. A GOP that is no longer racist has to compete in the marketplace of rational economics, which means they will revert back to their traditional conservative, free trade, neo-liberal roots, as the Democratic party regains the lost ground of traditional Democratic Socialist economics.

    Once both parties have rejected racism the political battle becomes the historically interesting one of super rich/high poverty/cult of individual economic freedom vs income ceilings/low poverty/emphasis on our mutual interdependence as a society. That's what I want the American political battle to be about. For one thing, it doesn't lead to civil wars. For another, both sides have enough of a point that I can at least start thinking that either party conceivably could have my vote, depending on implementation details.

    I want not a dime's worth of difference on social issues. I want Republicans to finally emerge from their social infancy and join the adult world so that we can have smarter and more productive political battles than durr brown immigrants are bad durr. I want an America where race has zero predictive value of political affiliation.
    Last edited by Kepler; 11-15-2019 at 02:39 PM.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    Not shocking that you’re resorting to circular logic.
    It was a simple question trix. You want us to get behind a guy (Bernie) who's politics haven't won a Presidential election since....1944? You are adamant that more moderate Dems are certain losers, even though they've won 4 out of the last 7 elections and the popular vote 6 out of 7. Maybe if you could show us some proof of the electoral prospects of a Sanders type candidate you could reassure the rest of us...

    EDIT: Again, Kep, you'll note nary an insult to be found.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Weíve already seen polling indicate that blue dog democrats suppress turnout and more progressive ones increase it. Also we all know how Obama campaigned even if he went back on a lot of his promises.

    Either way the idea that the left not holding power somehow means that they donít deserve it is circular logic and not exactly shocking coming from you. And the idea that moderate dems being a coin flip in the past 7 elections (one of which was a three way race with Perot) isnít all that reassuring for someone who actually cares about the direction this country is going.

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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Again, Kep, you'll note nary an insult to be found.
    And that's better, however you guys BOTH keep putting each other on the spot and I don't think that helps. "You want to do this; you advocate this; you said this." When I hear somebody speak that way, even if it's about floral arrangements, my natural instinct is to get my back up and say "stop telling me what I meant, I know it better than you do, oh and by the way go DIAF."

    I think that style promotes the emotional part of the argument rather than the substantive part. My first instinct reading you tends to not be, "let's examine the worth of this argument." It's "oh, you wanna play THAT way, eh? Well," (dons asbestos suit and hoists flamethrower).
    Last edited by Kepler; 11-15-2019 at 02:46 PM.
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