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Thread: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    there are very few leagues in the world that aren't selling leagues...whats your point?
    My point was to ask a question about MLS which I am far from being an expert about. Is that ok with you?

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Slap Shot View Post
    My point was to ask a question about MLS which I am far from being an expert about. Is that ok with you?
    my point is that most leagues in the world don't keep their homegrown talent because if they're good enough they all end up on the same 20ish teams...the top half of EPL, Juventus, Bayern Munich, Dortmund, PSG, Madrid, Barca...and probably a few that I'm missing.
    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits...Posted by Yager on 12/18/09: Remember, remember, the 18th of October (2003).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    my point is that most leagues in the world don't keep their homegrown talent because if they're good enough they all end up on the same 20ish teams...the top half of EPL, Juventus, Bayern Munich, Dortmund, PSG, Madrid, Barca...and probably a few that I'm missing.
    Even a team like Dortmund isn’t really a buying team, they sell their younger players (like Pulisic to Chelsea) a lot.

    I saw a comment about what a letdown in quality it was to go from Liverpool v Man City to Seattle v Toronto. Someone responded “well yeah, but it’d be like that with even PL clubs. There’s maybe two or three clubs in the world that could match up talent wise with Liverpool and Man City.”

    That speaks to MLS’ TV problems, they need stars but it’s extremely difficult to sign star players because those top clubs can straight up outspend them without blinking and the ones they can afford are older players that contribute to the negative “retirement league” image.

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    Even a team like Dortmund isn’t really a buying team, they sell their younger players (like Pulisic to Chelsea) a lot.

    I saw a comment about what a letdown in quality it was to go from Liverpool v Man City to Seattle v Toronto. Someone responded “well yeah, but it’d be like that with even PL clubs. There’s maybe two or three clubs in the world that could match up talent wise with Liverpool and Man City.”

    That speaks to MLS’ TV problems, they need stars but it’s extremely difficult to sign star players because those top clubs can straight up outspend them without blinking and the ones they can afford are older players that contribute to the negative “retirement league” image.
    I think the way to go is to get the reputation to be the league that gets players to the buying clubs/EPL, like Atlanta did with Miguel Almirón
    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits...Posted by Yager on 12/18/09: Remember, remember, the 18th of October (2003).

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    I'm not fan of the MLS structure but the way the European leagues maintain their high profile is to allow superteams to run over the rest of the national league. There are 5 teams in EPL, 3 in Bundesliga, 3 (charitably) in La Liga, 2 in Serie A, 2 (or maybe only 1) in Ligue 1 and at any given time .5 in Eeredivisie who matter -- the rest are DOOMED. It's equivalent to American professional sports in the 30s and 40s (in the NBA, well through the 60s) or most of the Power 5 NC$$ football conferences.

    MLS sucks in a lot of ways but at least they don't do that.
    Last edited by Kepler; 11-18-2019 at 06:15 PM.
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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    I'm not fan of the MLS structure but the way the European leagues maintain their high profile is to allow superteams to run over the rest of the national league. There are 5 teams in EPL, 3 in Bundesliga, 3 (charitably) in La Liga, 2 in Serie A, 2 (or maybe only 1) in Ligue 1 and at any given time .5 in Eeredivisie who matter -- the rest are DOOMED. It's equivalent to American professional sports in the 30s and 40s (in the NBA, well through the 60s) or most of the Power 5 NC$$ football conferences.

    MLS sucks in a lot of ways but at least they don't do that.
    That's just it. We demand parity. We limit the "haves" to try and keep the playing field level.

    Big time NCAA football is the closest thing we have to that sort of structure in North America. I mean, the SEC is 4 teams and 10 also-rans.
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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    I'm not fan of the MLS structure but the way the European leagues maintain their high profile is to allow superteams to run over the rest of the national league. There are 5 teams in EPL, 3 in Bundesliga, 3 (charitably) in La Liga, 2 in Serie A, 2 (or maybe only 1) in Ligue 1 and at any given time .5 in Eeredivisie who matter -- the rest are DOOMED. It's equivalent to American professional sports in the 30s and 40s (in the NBA, well through the 60s) or most of the Power 5 NC$$ football conferences.

    MLS sucks in a lot of ways but at least they don't do that.
    and part of the structure? Promotion/Relegation that means teams can't ever take a break to build towards something, they have to constantly be investing everything they can to stay up, get back, or they tumble.
    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits...Posted by Yager on 12/18/09: Remember, remember, the 18th of October (2003).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    and part of the structure? Promotion/Relegation that means teams can't ever take a break to build towards something, they have to constantly be investing everything they can to stay up, get back, or they tumble.
    And when they tumble, they tumble hard. See Leeds, Portsmouth, Blackburn, and countless others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    I'm not fan of the MLS structure but the way the European leagues maintain their high profile is to allow superteams to run over the rest of the national league. There are 5 teams in EPL, 3 in Bundesliga, 3 (charitably) in La Liga, 2 in Serie A, 2 (or maybe only 1) in Ligue 1 and at any given time .5 in Eeredivisie who matter -- the rest are DOOMED. It's equivalent to American professional sports in the 30s and 40s (in the NBA, well through the 60s) or most of the Power 5 NC$$ football conferences.

    MLS sucks in a lot of ways but at least they don't do that.
    3 in the Bundesliga? Lol, there is only Bayern. Dortmund gets to play around and finish second while Red Bull pours millions into RB Leipzig in an attempt to finish third.

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    I would say Euro clubs care less about winning their respective table as they do about making and advancing in the CL. That is not an argument in favor of their structure mind you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    my point is..
    I didn't ask for your point. Go back.
    Last edited by Slap Shot; 11-18-2019 at 07:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slap Shot View Post
    I would say Euro clubs care less about winning their respective table as they do about making and advancing in the CL. That is not an argument in favor of their structure mind you.



    I didn't ask for your point. Go back.
    Have to finish in the top 4 (or 3 or 2 depending on the league) to qualify for the CL anyway so yeah teams care about the league, now the other cup competitions...

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    I know how CL qualification works. Winning the table is grand but finishing Top 4 is a great consolation.

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    and part of the structure? Promotion/Relegation that means teams can't ever take a break to build towards something, they have to constantly be investing everything they can to stay up, get back, or they tumble.
    I love pro/rel. The problem isn't that per se, it's the chasm between the 1st and 2nd tier in European leagues. And that chasm is driven by the superteams -- if you're in tier one you play them and get that revenue, otherwise you're shut out. Pro/rel is a feature that only looks like a bug because of the massive inequality between the few Haves and the many Have Nots. And everybody is willing to put up with it because it makes so much more money. Again, this is roughly like a college football conference. I'm sure Vandy is tired of losing... until the check comes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    I love pro/rel. The problem isn't that per se, it's the chasm between the 1st and 2nd tier in European leagues. And that chasm is driven by the superteams -- if you're in tier one you play them and get that revenue, otherwise you're shut out. Pro/rel is a feature that only looks like a bug because of the massive inequality between the few Haves and the many Have Nots. And everybody is willing to put up with it because it makes so much more money. Again, this is roughly like a college football conference. I'm sure Vandy is tired of losing... until the check comes.
    That’s not the way the system works though, Vandy isn’t at risk of being replaced by UCF and losing their SEC check. When Newcastle or Fulham loses they lose the check as well. The Promotion Playoff Final isn’t called The Richest Game in Football for nothing, winning that game is a difference between a share of about £1 billion+ in TV money and a share in about £100 million. The only country where it’s slightly better is in Germany because of the fact the DFL runs both divisions of the Bundesliga. It’s categorically worse in Spain and Italy.

    The clubs put up with everything because of two reasons: 1) They’ve been doing it for 150 years and they’re too stubborn to try something new and 2) They fear being cut of the system all together.

    It’s a terrible system, everyone spends their money out of fear. CL teams spend to keep their CL places (and it’s why their trying to change the rules on that), teams on the bubble spend to try to get a Euro spot, the rest of the 1st tier spend for survival while 2nd tier teams spend (and lose huge amounts of money) to desperately try to get back. There’s a reason, despite all of the potential TV money, that the Chicago Fire and Newcastle United have a similar sale price valuation.

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    I don't think it's a terrible system at all and I love the idea of punishing owners who have found a safe, warm rentier space of being the Washington Generals, collecting the check, and being insulated from all consequences.

    Thought experiment: take all of recognized association football, all nations that are accepted (start with about the top 20 national league systems), all levels, worldwide, and have all revenue shared between all teams. It doesn't have to be exactly equal, there can be a gentle curve based on results and tier. Reward winning... but not insanely. Punish losing or dropping, but not lethally. So, say, ManU winds up with a revenue sharing check that is 2x a tier 2 contending team, 4x a tier 3 contending team, 2^(n-1)x a tier n contending team.

    That preserves the merits of pro/rel. If managed correctly, Havant & Waterlooville F.C. can someday win the EPL title. Likewise, if managed poorly enough, Liverpool can someday fall to tier 8. But dropping from tier 1 to tier 2 won't bankrupt you. In fact you'll go into relegation with a leg up on the other teams because you will still have talent geared for tier 1, and your revenue sharing check might be half but it won't be 1/100th of before so you can still pay your players. You won't make as much personal profit but you lost, f-ck you, you shouldn't. Own smarter.

    Fixed leagues are boring and they create perverse incentives for owners who are already predatory rich f-cks. If you want to take all teams public and give them to the citizens of their cities then we can talk about fixed leagues. Until then, pro/rel is better.
    Last edited by Kepler; 11-19-2019 at 12:38 PM.
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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    I don't think it's a terrible system at all and I love the idea of punishing owners who have found a safe, warm rentier space of being the Washington Generals, collecting the check, and being insulated from all consequences.

    Thought experiment: take all of recognized association football, all nations that are accepted (start with about the top 20 national league systems), all levels, worldwide, and have all revenue shared between all teams. It doesn't have to be exactly equal, there can be a gentle curve based on results and tier. Reward winning... but not insanely. Punish losing or dropping, but not lethally. So, say, ManU winds up with a revenue sharing check that is 2x a tier 2 contending team, 4x a tier 3 contending team, 2^(n-1)x a tier n contending team.

    That preserves the merits of pro/rel. If managed correctly, Havant & Waterlooville F.C. can someday win the EPL title. Likewise, if managed poorly enough, Liverpool can someday fall to tier 8. But dropping from tier 1 to tier 2 won't bankrupt you. In fact you'll go into relegation with a leg up on the other teams because you will still have talent geared for tier 1, and your revenue sharing check might be half but it won't be 1/100th of before so you can still pay your players. You won't make as much personal profit but you lost, f-ck you, you shouldn't. Own smarter.

    Fixed leagues are boring and they create perverse incentives for owners who are already predatory rich f-cks. If you want to take all teams public and give them to the citizens of their cities then we can talk about fixed leagues. Until then, pro/rel is better.
    except Tier 1 talent rarely stays if you go down to Tier 2...thats one of the biggest misunderstandings of the whole thing. The players arent stuck, so they usually care the least after the moment of failure is over because they won't be there next year.
    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits...Posted by Yager on 12/18/09: Remember, remember, the 18th of October (2003).

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    except Tier 1 talent rarely stays if you go down to Tier 2...thats one of the biggest misunderstandings of the whole thing. The players arent stuck, so they usually care the least after the moment of failure is over because they won't be there next year.
    But, again, they have to move back to tier 1 now because of the chasm. You guys are reversing cause and effect. The super teams don't exist because pro/rel sucks. Pro-rel sucks because the super teams exist. And the leagues don't care because there's more money in marketing Man City to China than Colchester United to the rest of Essex. Everybody loses except the power 5 owners, the league gliterati who get paid under the table, and Sky TV.
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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    But, again, they have to move back to tier 1 now because of the chasm. You guys are reversing cause and effect. The super teams don't exist because pro/rel sucks. Pro-rel sucks because the super teams exist. And the leagues don't care because there's more money in marketing Man City to China than Colchester United to the rest of Essex. Everybody loses except the power 5 owners, the league gliterati who get paid under the table, and Sky TV.
    and how do you get the EPL teams, especially the blue bloods to ever agree to changing that structure?
    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits...Posted by Yager on 12/18/09: Remember, remember, the 18th of October (2003).

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    and how do you get the EPL teams, especially the blue bloods to ever agree to changing that structure?
    You don't. You force them.
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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    and how do you get the EPL teams, especially the blue bloods to ever agree to changing that structure?
    There's a plan out there to have a European Super League where the top 20 or so money teams in Europe leave domestic leagues behind and play each other. The TV money would be staggering.

    That would make the EPL and other domestic leagues more equitable but the pie would be considerably smaller.

    Curious what some of our experts around here think of the plan.

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