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Thread: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

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    World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    CONCACAF is using the June 2020 rankings so the CONCACAF Nations League games this fall will have a huge effect.

    Right now the rankings are:
    12 Mexico
    22 USA
    43 Costa Rica
    52 Jamaica
    67 Honduras
    69 El Salvador
    ——————————
    74 Panama
    78 Canada
    79 Curacao
    83 Haiti
    101 Trinidad

    So Mexico, USA, and Costa Rica are almost a lock with Jamaica in a good spot and T&T a long shot.

    Honduras/Panama/Canada/Haiti/Curacao/Trindad are in League A. Jamaica and El Salvador are in Group B, mostly because Cuba dropped 11 goals on Turks and Caicos Islands while Jamaica only dropped 4 goals on the Cayman Islands. El Salvador/Jamaica will get two extra weighted matches than the League A teams, but they will be against much weaker opponents, limiting their ability to boost their ranking. Even six weighted wins might not be worth much against Aruba and Saint Lucia. (Canada landing two games against Cuba isn't much better.)

    Honduras/Trindad also get hurt because they will have two CNL games against non-FIFA Martinique, who doesn't count in FIFA's rankings, so they will have 2 CNL games + 2 friendlies max this fall to boost their ranking.

    Without doing full projections, this seems like a boon to Curacao/Haiti, who are in a group together-- if it's a race to #6, they will have four games against top 100 opponents, unlike Canada (Cuba), Panama (Bermuda), and the aforementioned teams playing League B or Martinique.

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    This feels like a quintessential CONCACAF compromise. The minnows are happy and Mom and Dad are happy, f- everyone else.

    The smaller nations have complained that the previous format was unfair because they were out quickly and spent two years on the sidelines. So this format makes them happy because they have something to play for and the Big 3 are happy because they’ve got huge odds to automatically qualify now plus less travel. Countries in the mid-tier like Canada are of course screwed.

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    This feels like a quintessential CONCACAF compromise. The minnows are happy and Mom and Dad are happy, f- everyone else.
    Are we Mom or Dad in this situation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Are we Mom or Dad in this situation?
    Currently Mom.

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    Currently Mom.
    Because Dad's slapping us around?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Because Dad's slapping us around?
    Pretty much.

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    Pretty much.
    That's OK. Dad's due for some jail time.
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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    That's OK. Dad's due for some jail time.
    Not if the cops look the other way.

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    I can understand this for teams like 13 through 35 because this gets them more competitive matches to get better. I don't understand why there isn't a 3 groups of 4 for the top 12 with the top 3 in each group going to the hex and the bottom 2 falling into some part of the other tournament? That would make more sense, either expanding the knock out to a round of 16 or idk?
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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    tl;dr now we get eliminated by Curacao

    When they said they wanted everyone included I pictured a UEFA setup, except it would play out in reverse and there would only be one or two good teams per group.

    This is a much better scenario, though a little odd. It’s like the NIT champ getting a bid to the Elite Eight while a couple Sweet Sixteen losers sit at home even though they were in the NCAA the whole time.

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartanforlife4 View Post
    tl;dr now we get eliminated by Curacao

    When they said they wanted everyone included I pictured a UEFA setup, except it would play out in reverse and there would only be one or two good teams per group.

    This is a much better scenario, though a little odd. It’s like the NIT champ getting a bid to the Elite Eight while a couple Sweet Sixteen losers sit at home even though they were in the NCAA the whole time.
    yup, the biggest problem is for teams 5-12, who really deserves those last couple spots in the HEX...because if you're not in the top 6, you have zero chance of avoiding the intercontinental playoff.
    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits...Posted by Yager on 12/18/09: Remember, remember, the 18th of October (2003).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    That's OK. Dad's due for some jail time.
    That is true. For a long timer like me this is all deja vu, all this s- going on now happened between 98-2000. The Men had a terrible WC cycle (finishing dead last in France), the Women won and arrogantly wondered why the Men were riding their coattails, the media wondered why the USSF spent money on the Men at all.

    Then 2000 happened, the Men hit a vain of youth talent and finished a surprising 4th in Syndey while the Women got knocked off and settled for bronze. MLS managed to survive while WUSA folded. The Men made a run to the Quarterfinals in 2002, being a missed handball from the Semifinals (F- Torsten Frings! ) while the Women crashed in 2003 and began a spiral down. The karmic cycle was interesting to watch.

    Though I’m still waiting for the karmic payback from the tragedy that is the 2010 cycle.

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Jim,
    On the USWNT equal pay discussion what was actually offered as far as switching to a more men's style structure with USSF chipping in salary money to NWSL?
    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits...Posted by Yager on 12/18/09: Remember, remember, the 18th of October (2003).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    yup, the biggest problem is for teams 5-12, who really deserves those last couple spots in the HEX...because if you're not in the top 6, you have zero chance of avoiding the intercontinental playoff.
    I was speaking more along the lines of 7 gets to keep playing against 4, while 5 and 6 are sitting at home. There is the argument that 5 and 6 already had their shot, which I get, but it’s definitely an oddity in the system that a team gets to jump two others for a shot at the WC.

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartanforlife4 View Post
    I was speaking more along the lines of 7 gets to keep playing against 4, while 5 and 6 are sitting at home. There is the argument that 5 and 6 already had their shot, which I get, but it’s definitely an oddity in the system that a team gets to jump two others for a shot at the WC.
    I called out 5-12 in the rankings saying 5 and 6 will be very happy to make it but the line between who is 5 and who is 12 is not that big...so not letting all of them have a shot at the hex is difficult. It is quite possible that the 6 best teams in CONCACAF are not the ones that make the Hex...
    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits...Posted by Yager on 12/18/09: Remember, remember, the 18th of October (2003).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    Jim,
    On the USWNT equal pay discussion what was actually offered as far as switching to a more men's style structure with USSF chipping in salary money to NWSL?
    Only thing I’ve seen is from the USSF filing that they offered a structure almost exactly to the men but the players rejected it. No idea what was to happen regarding the NWSL.

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    That is true. For a long timer like me this is all deja vu, all this s- going on now happened between 98-2000. The Men had a terrible WC cycle (finishing dead last in France), the Women won and arrogantly wondered why the Men were riding their coattails, the media wondered why the USSF spent money on the Men at all.

    Then 2000 happened, the Men hit a vain of youth talent and finished a surprising 4th in Syndey while the Women got knocked off and settled for bronze. MLS managed to survive while WUSA folded. The Men made a run to the Quarterfinals in 2002, being a missed handball from the Semifinals (F- Torsten Frings! ) while the Women crashed in 2003 and began a spiral down. The karmic cycle was interesting to watch.

    Though I’m still waiting for the karmic payback from the tragedy that is the 2010 cycle.
    Is this why you're so p-ssed at the women?

    I don't get that part. Here they are, THE absolutely God's gift to the sport in the US. They don't just win, they win with zest and style and a (sharpened) thumb in the eye of the fat old fools that watch ESPN to hear "hurr hurr" jokes about the beautiful game, and yet... you seem constantly teed off at them. I just don't get this. I know you love the MLS and yeah me not so much but the road to the Palace of Wisdom is paved with excess (William Blake) and the women are getting the best possible energy for the sport right now. Milk this sh-t til it bleeds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Is this why you're so p-ssed at the women?

    I don't get that part. Here they are, THE absolutely God's gift to the sport in the US. They don't just win, they win with zest and style and a (sharpened) thumb in the eye of the fat old fools that watch ESPN to hear "hurr hurr" jokes about the beautiful game, and yet... you seem constantly teed off at them. I just don't get this. I know you love the MLS and yeah me not so much but the road to the Palace of Wisdom is paved with excess (William Blake) and the women are getting the best possible energy for the sport right now. Milk this sh-t til it bleeds.
    I don’t hate the women, I have a dislike for the program. It’s a selfish, self-serving sorority that seeks not to grow the game in this country but to only grow the money in their pockets. Best example of this? Their CBA essentially guarantees them roster spots for every game, it makes it so only a couple of “non-contract” players can only be called in and if a player has a certain number of call ups they have to be offered a contract, but only a certain number of players can be on contract.

    If you want know the players true attitude towards the game in this country , ask them if they’ll be showing to their NWSL teams for their games this weekend? I’d bet my savings on “no”, and a good chunk on “no” for the weekend after as well. Maybe ask them if they’re gonna cut a chunk of their bonus to their NWSL teammates making $16k a year? They won’t, because they’re selfish and they really don’t care about the game in this country.

    As for the “energy”? It’s not something to capitalize on, it’ll be gone in a month.

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    Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Well, as usual, someone on BigSoccer can explain it for better than I can (I have real trouble putting thoughts from my brain into a post, especially when I'm using my phone):
    Those that follow women's soccer, but aren't fans of the WNT generally have one or more of the following reasons:

    1) The lawsuit(s) / legal actions about pay. A very brief synopsis of the timeline and basic stances of those involved:
    -Way back in 2004 in the aftermath of the collapse of the WUSA, the WNTPA and the USSF negotiated a new CBA (it was expired and needed to be renewed anyway) the changed the pay structure of national team players to having a decent portion of guaranteed income with a lower portion of income from per diems, bonuses and per game appearance fees. This also added official contracted roster spots to the team that players need to be formally released from with the paying of a severance package.
    -In 2012 this CBA was extended by a memorandum of understanding (MOU) between the WNTPA and the USSF
    -In late 2015 / early 2016 the WNTPA took the stance the 2012 MOU was not intended as an extension of the CBA and that therefore that there was not CBA in place. There were implications that the players might strike in the lead up to the Olympics that year unless their pay was increased to match that of the MNT. The 2004 CBA, extended in 2012 by the MOU had a clause preventing strikes or lockouts for the duration of the CBA, hence the need to delegitimize the 2012 MOU if the players wanted to strike.
    -Now an item open to differing opinions: At this time several players made public statements about the differences in the MNT and WNT pay structures that some fans found misleading. These included comparing MNT and WNT revenues in 2015 (a peak year for WNT revenues vs a low post WC year for MNT revenues) to show that the WNT receives a lower portion of revenue than the MNT, ignoring the 2016 Copa America in MNT revenue projections but assuming an Olympic gold medal with CBA obligated victory tour in projected 2016 WNT revenue, overestimating number of games played by the MNT to increase possible MNT player income, and not addressing or acknowledging the structural differences in how MNT and WNT players are paid (MNT players are paid entirely on a per game/camp basis in per diems, appearance fees and bonuses, WNT players have lower per game/camp income but earn an annual salary if they are contracted to the team. This includes full paid injury leave, half time maternity leave and a severance package if their contract with the national team is cut. MNT players do not get these benefits)
    -Back to statements of fact: The USSF sued to get the 2012 MOU recognized as valid by a court to prevent a possible strike before the Olympics. This lawsuit was ruled in the USSF's favor
    -In late 2016 the WNTPA and the USSF negotiated a new CBA (the old one was set to expire, so this needed to be done anyway)
    -In approximately 2017 (I can't remember the exact starting point for this) the WNTPA initiated an investigation by the EEOC (Equal employment opportunity commission, a US government agency tasked with investigating incidents of employment discrimination) into the USSF's compensation of the WNT
    -In February/March of this year the EEOC returned it's decision. It did not find the USSF's compensation policies discriminatory and did not initiate any action, but did allow the WNTPA to begin a lawsuit (normally not allowed when under the effects of a CBA). This was somewhat of a "punt" ruling as it did not definitively clear the USSF or back the WNTPA allegations.
    -In march of this year the WNTPA initiated a lawsuit against the USSF claiming gender based pay discrimination. This suit is still ongoing.

    2) Due to the way the CBA is structured (see above), the WNT has a minimum number of players under contract receiving a guaranteed annual salary, regardless of number of games played. Additional players not under contract to the WNT (and therefore paid on a per game/camp basis) can be called in but only for a small amount of time before they must be upgraded to a contract with the WNT and a guaranteed annual salary. Due to the fact that the USSF is already paying a roster of 20-24 players whether they play or not this is an active financial disincentive to try out newer younger players. Added in that removing a player from contract (to replace them we a younger abler player) necessitates the paying of a severance package and older players can stay on the team getting playing time well past the time the team should have moved on. All of this means that player turnover is much lower than in the MNT and there are always a couple past their prime players every tournament included on the roster in favor of younger plays not yet under contract.

    3) In conjunction with items 1 and 2 above, some fans perceive an aura of entitlement from some of the players. Other behaviors that are perceived as supporting this assessment include: Players reportedly petitioning for a getting a regulation in the NWSL that no player not on the WNT may receive a higher NWSL salary than a WNT player receives from the NWSL (ie if the minimum NWSL salary for a WNT player is $36,000 then the maximum NWSL salary for everyone else is $35,999), WNT players treating the NWSL as an afterthought/not their real job and skimping on league duties (see Carlie Lloyd taking a month to return to the Houston Dash after the last WWC, Hope Solo retiring from the Seattle Reign as soon as her cut from the WNT meant she wasn't getting a bolstered NWSL salary), poor player behavior not being reprimanded by the USSF (Hope Solo and the van incident), and players having previously undermined and ultimately ousted coaches that were willing to call in a wider field of players (Tom Sermanni)

    Obviously a lot of this is open to interpretation and one person can dislike some of the above behavior by WNT players while another person will look at the above and say the WNT players have done nothing wrong.
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