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  • #421
    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    I think we can differentiate between a monument honoring someone and historical places.

    A statue honoring Robert E. Lee is different than his house.
    A statue honoring Hitler won't be found in Germany, but you can still visit historical Nazi sites.
    For one thing, quite a few of those statues were put up during the Jim Crow era, pretty transparently in order to intimidate black people.

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    • #422
      Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

      Originally posted by duper View Post
      For one thing, quite a few of those statues were put up during the Jim Crow era, pretty transparently in order to scare black people.
      This is important. They were "you may be free but you're still not our equals" messaging.
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      • #423
        Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

        Originally posted by duper View Post
        For one thing, quite a few of those statues were put up during the Jim Crow era, pretty transparently in order to intimidate black people.
        Quite a few? Wasn’t it north of 75%?
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        • #424
          Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

          Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
          I'm saying if the people in the area want to rename the lake to Bde Maka Ska that's fine, go for it. If you're stanning for keeping it named after a guy who fought for slavery like Rube is or as he's done with confederate statues then that's pretty pathetic. (and yes Calhoun didn't technically fight in the war so let's not get pendantic about the word "fight" here)

          As for native american treatment Calhoun checks that box too.
          Whoa, I don't recall standing FOR CSA statues. I might have said (I don't recall) that a bigger deal was made of them than what was needed, but that's about it. So you can stop right there, please.

          I do support leaving some monuments/paintings/etc up with updated plaques on what the person's character was, to learn from history (IIRC there was a painting in the St Paul capitol that was going to do that, or thought about doing that?
          Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
          Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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          • #425
            Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

            Originally posted by The Rube View Post
            Whoa, I don't recall standing FOR CSA statues. I might have said (I don't recall) that a bigger deal was made of them than what was needed, but that's about it. So you can stop right there, please.

            I do support leaving some monuments/paintings/etc up with updated plaques on what the person's character was, to learn from history (IIRC there was a painting in the St Paul capitol that was going to do that, or thought about doing that?
            Plaque updates will probably get blocked by the knucks as being "hyperbole" or "political propaganda". Can't be giving the kiddos the full story.

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            • #426
              Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

              Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
              Plaque updates will probably get blocked by the knucks as being "hyperbole" or "political propaganda". Can't be giving the kiddos the full story.
              Yeah, it's better just to erase it. That is what drives me nuts about these things.
              Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
              Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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              • #427
                Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                Originally posted by The Rube View Post
                Yeah, it's better just to erase it. That is what drives me nuts about these things.
                Taking down statues does not erase the history. They do, in some cases, contribute to generational trauma.

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                • #428
                  Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                  Originally posted by duper View Post
                  Taking down statues does not erase the history. They do, in some cases, contribute to generational trauma.
                  They erase it, because they sure don't teach much of that stuff in school. Hence the idea of putting up a differently worded plaque by the thing the person is named after.....
                  Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
                  Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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                  • #429
                    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                    Originally posted by The Rube View Post
                    They erase it, because they sure don't teach much of that stuff in school. Hence the idea of putting up a differently worded plaque by the thing the person is named after.....
                    mmm... just can't agree there.

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                    • #430
                      Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                      Originally posted by duper View Post
                      mmm... just can't agree there.
                      That's fine. It's a tough issue to even discuss rationally, much less agree to disagree on, etc.
                      Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
                      Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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                      • #431
                        Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                        Originally posted by The Rube View Post
                        That's fine. It's a tough issue to even discuss rationally, much less agree to disagree on, etc.
                        agreed

                        It also helps that while I have a distinct opinion, if I had to give a percentage of how much I care about this issue, it would almost certainly be a 1-digit number.

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                        • #432
                          Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                          Originally posted by duper View Post
                          agreed

                          It also helps that while I have a distinct opinion, if I had to give a percentage of how much I care about this issue, it would almost certainly be a 1-digit number.
                          I look at it long term: how long before someone wants to change a name because they were anti-LGBT, or find something out in that person's past that doesn't sit well by today's standards (see: Kate Smith). How slippery is that slope?
                          Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
                          Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

                          Comment

                          • #433
                            Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                            Originally posted by The Rube View Post
                            I look at it long term: how long before someone wants to change a name because they were anti-LGBT, or find something out in that person's past that doesn't sit well by today's standards (see: Kate Smith). How slippery is that slope?
                            My inclination is to think that it's not very slippery. I'm also ok with societal values changing, and the baggage that accompanies that change.

                            Some people will survive the changes with acknowledgement of craziness and recognition that their accomplishments outweigh that craziness. Thomas Jefferson comes to mind. Ben Franklin. The composer Wagner does ok. Most humans are relegated to the dustbin of history. That's appropriate. I'm honestly ok with someone being thus relegated because they pushed some crazy nonsense. Anyone with a conscience, at any time in history, knew that treating people like animals because of [fill in the blank] was not kind.

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                            • #434
                              Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                              Originally posted by duper View Post
                              My inclination is to think that it's not very slippery. I'm also ok with societal values changing, and the baggage that accompanies that change.

                              Some people will survive the changes with acknowledgement of craziness and recognition that their accomplishments outweigh that craziness. Thomas Jefferson comes to mind. Ben Franklin. The composer Wagner does ok. Most humans are relegated to the dustbin of history. That's appropriate. I'm honestly ok with someone being thus relegated because they pushed some crazy nonsense. Anyone with a conscience, at any time in history, knew that treating people like animals because of [fill in the blank] was not kind.
                              And that's why I originally brought up Teddy Roosevelt. How many things does he have his name on?

                              If a name is to be taken down for (reasons)...how does one judge accomplishments > craziness? That changes with the times, all the time... different standards are set. It's always fluctuating.
                              Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
                              Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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                              • #435
                                Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                                Originally posted by duper View Post
                                agreed

                                It also helps that while I have a distinct opinion, if I had to give a percentage of how much I care about this issue, it would almost certainly be a 1-digit number.
                                This. It's something to be dealt with over time, and by vote of the communities that have such monuments. In the meantime, let's enforce a proper American history curriculum to do our best to educate the youth.

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