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Thread: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

  1. #361

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    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    Wasn't that Mussolini?
    Oh, right.

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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Quote Originally Posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
    To be fair lots of Minneapolis residents also care.
    Are they the same Minneapolis residents I see wandering aimlessly through Calhoon Square in the "hip" Uptown section of Minneapolis, or the ones flying out of the Lindbergh main terminal at the airport?
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

  3. #363
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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    Are they the same Minneapolis residents I see wandering aimlessly through Calhoon Square in the "hip" Uptown section of Minneapolis, or the ones flying out of the Lindbergh main terminal at the airport?
    Calhoun Square name can stay. But the lake name has to change, because that's different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    Are they the same Minneapolis residents I see wandering aimlessly through Calhoon Square in the "hip" Uptown section of Minneapolis, or the ones flying out of the Lindbergh main terminal at the airport?
    Didn’t Lindbergh change to terminal one years ago?

    Who the hell goes to Calhoun square? Or uptown??

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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Quote Originally Posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
    Didn’t Lindbergh change to terminal one years ago?

    Who the hell goes to Calhoun square? Or uptown??
    I think the official name is "Terminal 1-Lindbergh."
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

  6. #366
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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    What did Lindbergh do now?

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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    What did Lindbergh do now?
    Didn't do anything "now." I think it's his dinners with Goring that has some people scratching their heads. Oh, and the Nazi medals.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    Didn't do anything "now." I think it's his dinners with Goring that has some people scratching their heads. Oh, and the Nazi medals.
    Lindbergh was a whioux fan? Gross!

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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Don't get me wrong. Minneapolitans have mastered the art of the futile and meaningless gesture, and I applaud them for it (Ok, it's a golf clap).

    You have kids coming out of the U with $150,000 in debt and a $35,000 annual salary, but hey, let's spend a bunch of University time and resources studying whether we should change the name of a couple of buildings. There aren't three students at the U of M who could have told you who Coffman was before the controversy, and probably only 20 since.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Rube View Post
    Calhoun Square name can stay. But the lake name has to change, because that's different.
    Who owns the lake? Who owns Calhoun Square?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    Didn't do anything "now." I think it's his dinners with Goring that has some people scratching their heads. Oh, and the Nazi medals.
    He was spying while being an America Firster.

    Lindy also shot down a few Japanese planes as a tech rep.

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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Quote Originally Posted by GrinCDXX View Post
    Who owns the lake? Who owns Calhoun Square?
    I don't think that's really the point. Obviously Calhoun Square is privately owned.

    The point is, if the name "Calhoun" was offensive to residents of Minneapolis, there would be widespread boycotts and protests over the name, or people would just avoid the place.

    But that hasn't happened because people don't care that it's named Calhoun or even give a second thought as to who it might be named after.

    Which was the point made a few posts back by another poster regarding the lake -- by and large the name change came about because of no more than a handful of activists who made it a cause celebre. Before that, no one in the city cared.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

  13. #373
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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    Didn't do anything "now." I think it's his dinners with Goring that has some people scratching their heads. Oh, and the Nazi medals.
    The "now" wasn't asking about the present. Sorry about the confusion.

    Apparently Henry Ford, a chief exec of GM, and Watson (IBM chairman, I'm also guessing the person who the computer Watson was named after) were also awarded the same medal.

    The fact that Charles Lindbergh also won the Flying Cross, a Medal of Honor, the Legion of Honor from France, an Air Force Cross from England, and apparently a Pulitzer for good measure, might kind of overshadow his receiving of a pre-war German medal. Doing some more reading, he was awarded that medal at a dinner he was invited to by the US Ambassador to Germany. Actually, this entire passage from Wikipedia is probably a good way to put it all into perspective:

    In 1938, Hugh Wilson, the American ambassador to Germany, hosted a dinner for Lindbergh with Germany's air chief, Hermann Göring and three central figures in German aviation, Ernst Heinkel, Adolf Baeumker, and Willy Messerschmitt. At this dinner Göring presented Lindbergh with the Commander Cross of the Order of the German Eagle. Lindbergh's acceptance proved controversial after Kristallnacht, an anti-Jewish pogrom in Germany a few weeks later. Lindbergh declined to return the medal, later writing: "It seems to me that the returning of decorations, which were given in times of peace and as a gesture of friendship, can have no constructive effect. If I were to return the German medal, it seems to me that it would be an unnecessary insult. Even if war develops between us, I can see no gain in indulging in a spitting contest before that war begins."[147] Regarding this, Ambassador Wilson later wrote to Lindbergh, "Neither you, nor I, nor any other American present had any previous hint that the presentation would be made. I have always felt that if you refused the decoration, presented under those circumstances, you would have been guilty of a breach of good taste. It would have been an act offensive to a guest of the Ambassador of your country, in the house of the Ambassador."
    Which was preceded by this:
    At the request of the United States military, Lindbergh traveled to Germany several times between 1936 and 1938 to evaluate German aviation. Hanna Reitsch demonstrated the Focke-Wulf Fw 61 helicopter to Lindbergh in 1937, and he was the first American to examine Germany's newest bomber, the Junkers Ju 88, and Germany's front-line fighter aircraft, the Messerschmitt Bf 109, which he was allowed to pilot. He said of the Bf 109 that he knew of "no other pursuit plane which combines simplicity of construction with such excellent performance characteristics". There is disagreement on how accurate Lindbergh's reports were, but Cole asserts that the consensus among British and American officials was that they were slightly exaggerated but badly needed. Arthur Krock, the Chief of the New York Times' Washington Bureau, wrote in 1939, "When the new flying fleet of the United States begins to take air, among those who will have been responsible for its size, its modernness, and its efficiency is Colonel Charles A. Lindbergh. Informed officials here, in touch with what Colonel Lindbergh has been doing for his country abroad, are authority for this statement, and for the further observation that criticism of any of his activities-in Germany or elsewhere-is as ignorant as it is unfair." General Henry H. Arnold, the only U.S. Air Force general to hold five-star rank, wrote in his autobiography, "Nobody gave us much useful information about Hitler's air force until Lindbergh came home in 1939." Lindbergh also undertook a survey of aviation in the Soviet Union in 1938.
    THAT NAZI SYMPATHIZER!

    So it was one medal and one meeting with Goring.
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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    I don't think that's really the point. Obviously Calhoun Square is privately owned.

    The point is, if the name "Calhoun" was offensive to residents of Minneapolis, there would be widespread boycotts and protests over the name, or people would just avoid the place.

    But that hasn't happened because people don't care that it's named Calhoun or even give a second thought as to who it might be named after.

    Which was the point made a few posts back by another poster regarding the lake -- by and large the name change came about because of no more than a handful of activists who made it a cause celebre. Before that, no one in the city cared.
    I don't think it's fundamentally inconsistent to care a lot more about a public name than a private name, or to recognize that you have a lot more influence over a public name. Regarding your last point, you're really describing how most change comes about, no?

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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    The whole Lake Calhoun name controversy should really demonstrate quite clearly two truths.

    First, it's stupid to name publicly owned property like lakes, streets or buildings after real people. Real people have warts. All of them. Somewhere, some time, some how, someone is going to be offended by those warts. Name the lake Maple Lake or some such thing. Heaven knows Minnesota needs another Maple Lake.

    Second, now that we're pregnant and we've ignored Truth #1 and gone down this path, forget about it. Again, people have warts. We knew that when we started naming things after them. Whatever good was in them that caused them to receive this unearned honor still exists. Plus, and most importantly, we have far greater needs to spend our time and money on than renaming every lake, street, city, state or building that has the name Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Davis, Monroe, Jackson, Calhoun, etc..., attached to it.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Looking further, it would appear those were the least of his issues. It was the subsequent comments on race that would be, um, problematic.
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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    The "now" wasn't asking about the present. Sorry about the confusion.

    Apparently Henry Ford, a chief exec of GM, and Watson (IBM chairman, I'm also guessing the person who the computer Watson was named after) were also awarded the same medal.

    The fact that Charles Lindbergh also won the Flying Cross, a Medal of Honor, the Legion of Honor from France, an Air Force Cross from England, and apparently a Pulitzer for good measure, might kind of overshadow his receiving of a pre-war German medal. Doing some more reading, he was awarded that medal at a dinner he was invited to by the US Ambassador to Germany. Actually, this entire passage from Wikipedia is probably a good way to put it all into perspective:



    Which was preceded by this:


    THAT NAZI SYMPATHIZER!

    So it was one medal and one meeting with Goring.
    Of course, there was the "Des Moines speech" as well.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

  18. #378
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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Henry Ford, Walt Disney, and many other big names of the 20s and 30s sympathized with Hitler, until he "went too far" and started another World War. That is well-known.
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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    Henry Ford, Walt Disney, and many other big names of the 20s and 30s sympathized with Hitler, until he "went too far" and started another World War. That is well-known.
    My practice with people, and in particular, historical figures, is this. You can't judge them by today's standards. That even holds true for physical objects. We can't judge the quality of the computers that helped send men to the moon based upon today's standards.

    It doesn't make the comments or thoughts of Ford or Disney or Lindbergh or Calhoun right. It has to be taken in the context of their times.

    And honestly, part of the reason for my position on this is that's the way I want to be judged. I don't want to be judged based upon the standards of 2100.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    It matters to a bunch of triggered white denizens of Edina, apparently.
    Well duh...Edina, Minnetonka and Wayzata are awful

    The biggest farce of them all is...even if the name stayed at Bde Maka Ska everyone still called it Calhoun. The name change is completely ceremonial. Just like everybody still calls it Mariucci Arena not the corporate name.
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