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2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

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  • Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

    I’m going to throw a bone to Grand Rapids and Van Andel, actually.

    For the first three regionals that they hosted in the 16-team format (‘04, ‘05, and ‘07), they averaged 5366 fans per game. That’s better than Allentown, frankly. Is it great? No. But it’s respectable and probably in line with what the NCAA hopes for, numbers-wise.

    Of course, those regionals all had either Michigan or Michigan State playing. Plus Notre Dame, Wisconsin, and Minnesota sprinkled in there.

    The problem are the other two regionals:
    - Notre Dame, Bemidji State, Cornell and Northeastern
    - Yale, Minnesota, North Dakota and Niagara

    With basically just Notre Dame and the prayer of loads of travelers from Minny, NoDak and Cornell, it’s no surprise that those regionals did poorly. No Michigan schools (not even Western or Tech, etc) is going to make attendance tough.
    If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

    BRING BACK PAT RICHTER!!!


    At his graduation ceremony from the U of Minnesota, my cousin got a keychain. When asked what UW gave her for graduation, my sister said, "A degree from a University that matters."

    Canned music is a pathetic waste of your time.

    Comment


    • Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

      I would certainly go to Grand Rapids. I’m actually hoping they put a regional there with the gophers. Or better yet, dump this stupid on campus big ten tournament format. It’s awful.

      Grand Rapids would be fun for a change.
      Code:
      As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
      College Hockey 6       College Football 0
      BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
      Originally posted by SanTropez
      May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
      Originally posted by bigblue_dl
      I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
      Originally posted by Kepler
      When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
      He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

      Comment


      • Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

        Originally posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
        . I posted some numbers the other day, but just realized that my table wasn’t updated. Allentown has averaged 5199 fans/game across two regionals. Western sites (not at a campus location, mind you) with better averages:
        - St Paul (Xcel, 7625 avg, 4 regionals)
        - Denver (Pepsi Center, 11183 avg, 1 regional)
        - Sioux Falls (Premier Center, 8000 avg, 1 regional)

        Also: Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, and Michigan all have higher averages for on-campus hosting. CC is close (5881 over two regionals).

        So, in other words: I disagree that it’s demonstrably better than any western site, much less “far better”.
        The places you have just mentioned are "West". I wrote "Midwest." The point I was getting at is this:
        If you can consider everything from St Paul to the Pacific "west", then the midwest sites are:
        Any place in Michigan. Van Andel is the only one I know of which is a neutral site which has hosted a regional recently, and it hasn't been in the mix for a few years.
        Cincinnati hosted.
        So did Toledo.
        Notre Dame hosted on campus, but since that was on campus, it's outside the realm of this discussion.
        And, then Allentown.

        Of these, Allentown is best. And, last year was much better than this year. That's my point. That, specifically, the area that's called 'midwest' doesn't have enough draw to make a regional really work well.

        As I said, the 2 problems with the present system are:
        A) #1 seeds playing much nearer to the #4 seed's home town (Providence this year is a case in point). {2s and 3s seem less of a problem, because there is much less of a metrical difference between them).
        B) Lack of good possibilities for midwestern hosts, leading to Allentown being the "Midwest" regional, which contributes to #1. 2012-13 was the last time that 3 #1s were from further east than Allentown.
        Last edited by Numbers; 04-02-2019, 09:12 AM.

        Comment


        • Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

          I would agree that everywhere in IN and OH has been a disaster.

          I forgot if it was here or a different thread where someone bandied about other options in Michigan, and I noted rinks around Wisconsin and Illinois that one might imagine would make for good regional hosts.

          I have to imagine that Milwaukee would get a good look if they ever bid. They have a fairly ideal situation: arena that seats in the mid-9000s in a good downtown area with loads of excellent bars/restaurants nearby that’s also seen a few Frozen Fours hosted across the street.
          If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

          BRING BACK PAT RICHTER!!!


          At his graduation ceremony from the U of Minnesota, my cousin got a keychain. When asked what UW gave her for graduation, my sister said, "A degree from a University that matters."

          Canned music is a pathetic waste of your time.

          Comment


          • Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

            Originally posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
            I would agree that everywhere in IN and OH has been a disaster.

            I forgot if it was here or a different thread where someone bandied about other options in Michigan, and I noted rinks around Wisconsin and Illinois that one might imagine would make for good regional hosts.

            I have to imagine that Milwaukee would get a good look if they ever bid. They have a fairly ideal situation: arena that seats in the mid-9000s in a good downtown area with loads of excellent bars/restaurants nearby that’s also seen a few Frozen Fours hosted across the street.

            Rinks in Wisc and Ill would be interesting trials but who is going to bid to host?
            UW won't because they know there is a chance they won't qualify, and that risk disaster. It's further from Michigan to Madison to Milwaukee than you think (getting around the lake). And, Minnesota is not guaranteed there (in the same way the committee puts Prov in Prov even when they don't host.)
            In spite of rumors about U of Ill, there is not a host school close enough to any place in Illinois to make it worth it.

            So, what to do? I don't know. But this is the problem.

            Comment


            • Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

              Originally posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
              I would agree that everywhere in IN and OH has been a disaster.

              I forgot if it was here or a different thread where someone bandied about other options in Michigan, and I noted rinks around Wisconsin and Illinois that one might imagine would make for good regional hosts.

              I have to imagine that Milwaukee would get a good look if they ever bid. They have a fairly ideal situation: arena that seats in the mid-9000s in a good downtown area with loads of excellent bars/restaurants nearby that’s also seen a few Frozen Fours hosted across the street.
              100% agree. 100%. Illinois and especially Wisconsin would be attractive choices. At least for what I'm looking for as a fan. In order, I want:
              1. Driving distance < 6-7 hours or flights under $250 (I know that's limiting) - 65%
              2. Good food and bars - 15%
              3. Good hotel choices with ample room - 15%
              4. An arena that isn't a dump - 5%
              5. Extra credit if there are attractive non-hockey things to do

              If the Gophers had ended up in Fargo, I might have gone (unless the Sioux were in it, then f-ck that with a cactus). For me personally, the biggest problem with regionals and travel is that there's only the guarantee of one game for my team. YMMV. It's hard to justify a big travel budget for a one-game event. So it has to be an attractive place for other activities. Grand Rapids is beer mecca. Milwaukee has all sorts of things to find yourself trouble. A burb of Chicago would be great. Madison areas would be outstanding. Minneapolis/St. Paul have just about everything. I'd imagine Des Moines isn't as bad as I imagine. The Quad Cities would be a half-decent choice. Indianapolis, South Bend*, Omaha, all would be great. I don't even mind Detroit/Ann Arbor.

              I really think they need to end the ridiculous campus prohibition. Maroosh**, AmSoil, Kohl, and even REA would be excellent places to host and would certainly sell tickets. If places like Duluth could host, I imagine any Minnesota team placed there would nearly sell it out. I get the issue of having low-seeded hosts getting an unfair advantage by playing essentially at home, but the problem isn't made any worse by hosting at home arenas. Home ice advantage comes mostly from fans in the seats. There may be some marginal boosts by familiarity and whatnot, but I imagine the hosts wouldn't get their home locker room if they weren't the home team (as it should be). Imagine if the host school had to come out of what normally is a visitor's locker room. That might work against them. Personally, I wouldn't mind playing the Badgers in Kohl or the Bulldogs in AmSoil. Assuming the tickets are distributed or are available fairly.

              Sorry for the meandering post.

              *Though I don't think Compton is a great arena because of the bizarre design choices made in seat orientation and seat size.
              **Yeah, I know, big ice
              Code:
              As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
              College Hockey 6       College Football 0
              BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
              Originally posted by SanTropez
              May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
              Originally posted by bigblue_dl
              I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
              Originally posted by Kepler
              When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
              He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

              Comment


              • Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

                Originally posted by Bruin View Post
                Agreed. And the logic in overcoming the flaws of Pairwise (or Krach, or any other method) is that over the years it will, statistically, be fairly accurate (or in other words, the inaccuracies will be averaged out). I would argue that the same principle (albeit less mathematical) can be applied with the team placement issues - over the years, everyone gets the same share of "unfairness". Seems you are arguing that there's systematic unfairness towards the teams from the West - that may be true, and I am not arguing for or against that statement.
                Very much agree with your approach that the "inaccuracies" can average out over the years. Success, however, requires that the system itself be well designed.

                To borrow a word from CLS, the current system is untenable right now in the CCHA states. And only a little better in the Upper Midwest. Blacklisting the campus rinks is the culprit. It would be really helpful if posters from the East could simply acknowledge that, and participate in the search for a solution. Instead, "I'm not taking a position; it's not my fight" is a typical reaction. That's what I hear you saying in the above comment. If you care about the long term health of the regionals -- and I believe you do -- you should engage and try to move the puck forward.

                Well, I'm not inventing anything... I haven't seen (from the "posters on your side of the debate") anyone advocating for fairness for number #2 seeds, in their matchups against #3 seeds. Coupled with fairness in 1 vs 4 matchup, and in addition to other (NCAA self-imposed) criteria, there is absolutely no way the current system can ever be fair to all the teams participating.
                I wanted to take this item seriously, and tried to look at it from the point of view of each of the 8 teams seeded #2 or #3 this year. My conclusion? Nobody's talking about it because none of those teams were treated unfairly. Including Ohio State. Given the constraints of this year's rules & sites, of course.

                Do you have a specific example from a previous tournament?

                As far as I know, it is not all important. I have explained my belief, based on what I heard from an insider, what the biggest stumbling block was in the system where campuses were hosting the regionals (revenue sharing, not the fairness).
                That is an interesting story, and I'm going to let your information percolate for a while. Even though it didn't work out for Hockey East, having a conference host a set of regionals might be a productive idea for the West. Why not? Conferences have served as hosts for the FF.

                BTW, I don't blame Hockey East for a moment for walking away from a lousy deal. But again, the situations in the East & West are quite different. The East has the AHL rinks available, in locations proximate to college hockey fans. The West doesn't. We've been struggling with this problem for years, "insiders" included. Maybe negotiations between 1 or 2 of the Western conferences & the NCAA could succeed, due to the greater urgency.

                Comment


                • Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

                  Originally posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
                  I’m going to throw a bone to Grand Rapids and Van Andel, actually.

                  For the first three regionals that they hosted in the 16-team format (‘04, ‘05, and ‘07), they averaged 5366 fans per game. That’s better than Allentown, frankly. Is it great? No. But it’s respectable and probably in line with what the NCAA hopes for, numbers-wise.
                  Seconded. NY teams banished to there can drive across ON to G.P. and V.A. is in the goldilocks zone for NC$$ rinks.

                  Midwest regional sites are always going to be messy.
                  Last edited by Kepler; 04-02-2019, 10:34 AM.
                  Cornell University
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                  • Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                    Are you sure? The RPI weighted home and away games differently.
                    Not saying pwr is better with ranking than krach

                    BUT krach had major issues with last place wcha teams being top 25 and not settling issues with h/a problems.
                    a legend and an out of work bum look a lot alike, daddy.

                    Comment


                    • Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

                      Your theory that UW wouldn’t host is speculative at best.

                      And as for Illinois: the CCHA hosted a moderately successful regional in St Louis of all places back in 2011. What’s more prohibitive is a combination of closeby schools and ease of other fans getting there.

                      Chicago lacks one (Wisconsin and Notre Dame are it for nearby schools), but is very ideal for others.
                      If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

                      BRING BACK PAT RICHTER!!!


                      At his graduation ceremony from the U of Minnesota, my cousin got a keychain. When asked what UW gave her for graduation, my sister said, "A degree from a University that matters."

                      Canned music is a pathetic waste of your time.

                      Comment


                      • Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

                        Originally posted by mookie1995 View Post
                        Not saying pwr is better with ranking than krach

                        BUT krach had major issues with last place wcha teams being top 25 and not settling issues with h/a problems.
                        Top 25 isn’t a problem. Only if it vaulted them into the top 12-14.
                        Code:
                        As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
                        College Hockey 6       College Football 0
                        BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                        Originally posted by SanTropez
                        May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                        Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                        I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                        Originally posted by Kepler
                        When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                        He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

                        Comment


                        • Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

                          Originally posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
                          Your theory that UW wouldn’t host is speculative at best.

                          And as for Illinois: the CCHA hosted a moderately successful regional in St Louis of all places back in 2011. What’s more prohibitive is a combination of closeby schools and ease of other fans getting there.

                          Chicago lacks one (Wisconsin and Notre Dame are it for nearby schools), but is very ideal for others.
                          Wisconsin, best to my knowledge, is the only school to host any form of true tournament in an entirely different state and time zone. I don’t think Wisconsin has any sort of fear about hosting. I just think Fat Alvarez hates hockey. Or at best he doesn’t care and won’t lift a finger to grow the sport or team.

                          Chicago is less of a problem due to the cost of traveling from Michigan and even Minnesota. You used to be able to find plenty of flights from the twin cities to Chicago for cheap. I’d be fine with a Chicago regional. But it really stretches what I’m willing to drive if the games were on a Sunday.
                          Code:
                          As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
                          College Hockey 6       College Football 0
                          BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                          Originally posted by SanTropez
                          May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                          Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                          I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                          Originally posted by Kepler
                          When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                          He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

                          Comment


                          • Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

                            Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                            Wisconsin, best to my knowledge, is the only school to host any form of true tournament in an entirely different state and time zone.
                            Just in Frozen Fours in recent memory:
                            UAH hosted in Tampa in 2012. Different state, different time zone
                            Alaska hosted in Anaheim in 1999. Different state, different time zone
                            Notre Dame hosted in Chicago in 2017. Different state, same time zone.
                            ECAC hosted in Philadelphia in 2014. Different states (no ECAC schools in PA), same time zone.
                            Navy hosted in Washington in 2009. Different state, same time zone.
                            CHA hosted in St. Louis in 2007. Different states (no CHA or any NCAA hockey schools in MO), various time zones (1 same, 2 different)
                            Last edited by TigerFan86-87; 04-03-2019, 11:38 AM.
                            Can't we all just get along?
                            Always remember... This is just a game we're talking about here. Let's not take it all too seriously.

                            Comment


                            • Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

                              Originally posted by TigerFan86-87 View Post
                              Just in Frozen Fours in recent memory:
                              UAH hosted in Tampa in 2012. Different state, different time zone
                              Alaska hosted in Anaheim in 1999. Different state, different time zone
                              Notre Dame hosted in Chicago in 2017. Different state, same time zone.
                              ECAC hosted in Philadelphia in 2014. Different states (no ECAC schools in PA), same time zone.
                              Navy hosted in Washington in 2009. Different state, same time zone.
                              CHA hosted in St. Louis in 2007. Different states (no CHA or any NCAA schools in MO), various time zones (1 same, 2 different)
                              Huh, I guess I assumed Alabama was eastern time zone. I thought of that one when writing about Wisky.
                              Didn't know Alaska hosted.
                              South Bend is a freakin' suburb of Chicago


                              When I first typed up that reply, I guess I meant nowhere near their fanbase/geographic location. But Alaska, CHA, and Navy are duly noted.
                              Code:
                              As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
                              College Hockey 6       College Football 0
                              BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                              Originally posted by SanTropez
                              May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                              Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                              I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                              Originally posted by Kepler
                              When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                              He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

                              Comment


                              • Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread - Regionals are the best weekend of hockey all year

                                And you can add this year’s FF host. The MAAC is hosting it, and there hasn’t been a MAAC hockey league in years (though most of their teams are now in Atlantic Hockey).

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