2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Trades are things like on-site welding, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, carpentry. There is a shortage of people to fill those jobs. Especially when the economy is hot.

You’re confusing them with manufacturing jobs. Which are very different.

Fair enough, the overseas part probably doesn't apply to the jobs you're talking about but most of these jobs pay as well as they do due to unionization and their power has eroded considerably over the years. And the earning potential still isn't as high as the upper end of what you can earn via a bachelor's (where you can get a desk job and search the internet half the day).

shhhh. he was on a roll

You're on a roll every (coherent-ish) post you make

[wolverineTrumpet]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

I find it fascinating that this is so hard to understand.

It's part of the reason some poor people vote Republican. Dems want to give "handouts". Why should Joe down the street be given food stamps so his family can eat when I had to work to earn money to feed my family? How dare someone else be given a leg up!

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

It's part of the reason some poor people vote Republican. Dems want to give "handouts". Why should Joe down the street be given food stamps so his family can eat when I had to work to earn money to feed my family? How dare someone else be given a leg up!

Yet no one blinks at all the corporate welfare. It's mind boggling.

[mookie1995]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

Yet no one blinks at all the corporate welfare. It's mind boggling.

so then... which should you concentrate on if you want to rally support to pass laws?????

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

It's part of the reason some poor people vote Republican. Dems want to give "handouts". Why should Joe down the street be given food stamps so his family can eat when I had to work to earn money to feed my family? How dare someone else be given a leg up!

Worse than that, people will disparage others getting the very "handouts" they're receiving themselves! That's the beauty of the con job the knucks are running. If Joe Six Pack's brother is collecting unemployment, he's not a bum. He's just down on his luck and can't find a decent job where he lives. BUT, those Other People that he doesn't know personally who live somewhere else? They're all mooches I tell ya!

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

Fair enough, the overseas part probably doesn't apply to the jobs you're talking about but most of these jobs pay as well as they do due to unionization and their power has eroded considerably over the years. And the earning potential still isn't as high as the upper end of what you can earn via a bachelor's (where you can get a desk job and search the internet half the day).You're on a roll every (coherent-ish) post you make

Those people were making **** near six figures a few years out of trade school. Most of the guys on the maintenance crew still earn as much as I do, even 12 years into an engineering career. I know because I actually talked to them. I know what rates they earn because I hire and work with them daily. Even if they aren’t earning as much as an engineer out of school, they’re still earning more than the vast majority of kids.

The difference in rate at the top end of earning is washed away by the extra $100k-$200k the college student has to pay in principal and interest. Plus the fact that they will earn less out of the gate compared to trades. The advantage they build early in life could be even more dramatic if they invested that early lead and let it grow over time.

I would like to see unions strengthened again though. If we start to emphasize the trades, we need to protect them. We can definitely agree there.

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

I would like to see unions strengthened again though. If we start to emphasize the trades, we need to protect them. We can definitely agree there.

This is the key to a healthy middle class. Strong unions --> high blue collar salaries --> lower college demand --> lower tuition --> less college debt. Everybody wins except the banks.

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

Those people were making **** near six figures a few years out of trade school. Most of the guys on the maintenance crew still earn as much as I do, even 12 years into an engineering career. I know because I actually talked to them. I know what rates they earn because I hire and work with them daily. Even if they aren’t earning as much as an engineer out of school, they’re still earning more than the vast majority of kids.

The difference in rate at the top end of earning is washed away by the extra $100k-$200k the college student has to pay in principal and interest. Plus the fact that they will earn less out of the gate compared to trades. The advantage they build early in life could be even more dramatic if they invested that early lead and let it grow over time.

I would like to see unions strengthened again though. If we start to emphasize the trades, we need to protect them. We can definitely agree there.

That's all well and good but there's a flip side. Not to disparage the trades, but if you're working for yourself you're also taking on a lot of extra costs that someone in a college degree related white collar job isn't. Stretch your imagination for a second and imagine me as a desk jockey/corporate stiff. Based on my modest compensation, the company will contribute approx. 10% to my retirement including salary+bonus+stock awards+profit sharing. Then there's 5 weeks of paid vacation. A few bucks to fund the HSA. Paying 2/3rds of health insurance and payroll taxes. 16 weeks paid maternity/paternity leave. Now 100-200K in student loans, unless you're a doctor, is absurd. But, there is a reward to be reaped for paying for a college education.

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

I'm not sure your anecdotes tell the entire story here and if everyone goes to trade school, you suddenly have a ton of trade school applicants filling all the jobs, their earning potential will go down in the long run as the market gets flooded with applicants.

The other thing is the benefits of college aren't necessarily limited to learning things that produce widgets for someone in a capitalistic society. There are many other benefits and as I've stated before I think free college is the best way to get kids in red states to open their minds.

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

The other thing is the benefits of college aren't necessarily limited to learning things that produce widgets for someone in a capitalistic society. There are many other benefits and as I've stated before I think free college is the best way to get kids in red states to open their minds.

I agree with you completely, but here we're just talking about the animal training role of colleges -- how the drones use them to prepare to earn a living.

Sure, there are other (arguably or, as I would say, inarguably) more important reasons for college. Those, at least as long as we're burdened with our current economic system, imply a leisure class. Poets and philosophers, without whom humanity is a glorified ant hill, either luxuriate in old money or starve in a Bohemian garret. Both are proven methods to drown in chicks, which is after all The Whole Point.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

The parents are wrong, however. I mentioned before, look into blue-collar stuff. Forget the stigma...there's money to be made, and it usually only takes 2 years at a trade school.

While trades are a great option to look at, I feel like blue collar traditionalist types will often grunt that "anyone can do it" if they just apply themselves. I don't know about you, but I don't think it's automatically a good idea for someone whose primary aptitude is writing or art or history, to try and learn how to properly wire a house.

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

I agree with you completely, but here we're just talking about the animal training role of colleges -- how the drones use them to prepare to earn a living.

Sure, there are other (arguably or, as I would say, inarguably) more important reasons for college. Those, at least as long as we're burdened with our current economic system, imply a leisure class. Poets and philosophers, without whom humanity is a glorified ant hill, either luxuriate in old money or starve in a Bohemian garret. Both are proven methods to drown in chicks, which is after all The Whole Point.

I'm not talking about that stuff as much as the various elective courses that give you some type of science background so you can see past some of the various BS right wing arguments about climate change and other anti-science nonsense, some of the courses that teach you about how our culture affects how we view things as a society and how it changes over time, for me the nutrition/wellness courses actually helped me form healthier habits and I still use that info today, even basic literature courses teach you to think critically about what you're reading which is a lot more than we can say about 35% of the population (and realistically that number is a lot higher).

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

Quick way to become rich - push electrons on Wall Street.

It's not your money.

Definitely not a quick or easy way - one of my former bosses' brothers did that. It's very long hours for most of your 20s and 30s, not to mention avoiding the burnout of drugs and alcohol that constantly happens in that scene. However, if you do it right, the payoff of a Wall Street resume is a very early retirement. His goal was to be out by 40, and he and his wife were going to move back to Chicago, where he would shop around for a comparatively easy CFO/VP of Finance type job to keep himself occupied.

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

I'm not talking about that stuff as much as the various elective courses that give you some type of science background so you can see past some of the various BS right wing arguments about climate change and other anti-science nonsense, some of the courses that teach you about how our culture affects how we view things as a society and how it changes over time, for me the nutrition/wellness courses actually helped me form healthier habits and I still use that info today, even basic literature courses teach you to think critically about what you're reading which is a lot more than we can say about 35% of the population (and realistically that number is a lot higher).

My intuition is that kind of an open mind does not actually come from college -- you've either got it or you don't. To be fair, Dr. Mrs. totally disagrees with me and agrees with you that this is the greatest gift of a liberal arts education: the ability to think for yourself. My experience is that bit is frozen at birth at 0 for most and 1 for we few, we happy few.

Either you are curious or you aren't. 90% are the sheep fixated on the grass. 9% are the shepherds fixated on controlling the sheep. And 1% of us leave the meadow and head out into the world.

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

My intuition is that kind of an open mind does not actually come from college -- you've either got it or you don't. To be fair, Dr. Mrs. totally disagrees with me and agrees with you that this is the greatest gift of a liberal arts education: the ability to think for yourself. My experience is that bit is frozen at birth at 0 for most and 1 for we few, we happy few.

Well it's not entirely due to college and I know people who went to college and didn't open their minds. While I don't think it's going to work every time I do think on average it'll provide a net benefit.

The other thing IRT your post about poetry/music and the other studies that don't necessarily prepare you for the workforce, I'd argue someone like Mozart provided far more to society than someone with a STEM degree who uses it to work for some consulting firm that actively destroys the planet.