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Thread: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

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    Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    And again. It's not racist to attack the Sanders campaign. It definitely is playing into a narrative foisted on us by a economic order that is terrified of being reformed. But Sanders is hardly identified with POC. If anything we have had the opposite problem.

    I'm going to type out verbatim the problem from a book called The Chapo Guide to Revolution, which is funny and brilliant and very rude. This is the entire Democratic party problem for the last 30 years. Ahem.


    For a long time people had a crude but basically correct understanding of culture’s relationship to politics: Marx’s idea that the “superstructure” of society – law, morality, and culture – arises out of the economic meat grinder hidden underneath, the “base.” This rough version of the theory gets criticized as simplistic, and to be fair, it is: there are all kinds of inputs and outputs that determine culture, and there’s plenty of good criticism of this bastardized version of Marx. Still, as far as we’re concerned, it’s always better to err on the side of this crude theory than to go in the opposite direction, the For Dummies version of Antonio Gramsci: the idea that a nation’s culture is self-reinforcing and affects all other walks of life, so if you change the culture, you can change the political reality.

    In the 80s and 90s liberals went with the latter approach and that has made all the difference: the end of economic and political power of the working class, the triumph in cultural institutions of the Left while at the same time the re-institution of the worst excesses of 19th century Gilded Cage neo-feudal plutocracy.

    Sanders is returning us to an economic focus but the people who have made their mental states (and their careers) dependent on the culture focus find this terrifying and incomprehensible. They think it repudiates their commitment to social justice (it doesn't) so they attack it as being white, privileged, entitled, yada yadda.

    And the billionaires sit back and laugh and provide distractions here and there when it looks like the voters might actually start thinking in terms of their economic self-interest again. What else are Schultz and Delaney and Bloomberg doing running for the Dem nomination other than trying to ensure that the Democrats never adopt the redistribution policies that built the middle class in the first place and which incidentally will reduce them from being infinitely rich to merely obscenely wealthy?
    Last edited by Kepler; 02-04-2020 at 09:55 AM.
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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    How is Bernie's campaign "one of the most diverse in history" from the previous thread. Based on what criteria?
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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    By any conventional metric that measures diversity lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    And again. It's not racist to attack the Sanders campaign.
    It is when the claim is that their support is entirely white bros when they have the most support among women and an extremely diverse coalition.

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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    By any conventional metric that measures diversity lol. It is when the claim is that their support is entirely white bros when they have the most support among women and an extremely diverse coalition.
    Do you maybe have a source for any of this? I'd be a little surprised if Sanders had a more diverse campaign than Obama to use one prominent example from recent memory...
    Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    How is Bernie's campaign "one of the most diverse in history" from the previous thread. Based on what criteria?
    they gotta have the chicks around to harass. rover knows that
    a legend and an out of work bum look a lot alike, daddy.

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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    By any conventional metric that measures diversity lol. It is when the claim is that their support is entirely white bros when they have the most support among women and an extremely diverse coalition.
    Sanders is 2nd to Biden in black support. Nobody else is even in the double digits.
    Code:
    .48 Biden
    .20 Sanders
    .09 Warren
    Biden people can crow about racial diversity to Sanders. Nobody else can.

    I haven't seen a gender breakdown.
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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Do you maybe have a source for any of this? I'd be a little surprised if Sanders had a more diverse campaign than Obama to use one prominent example from recent memory...
    He has the most support from women of any candidate and he has more non-white supporters than white. IDK if he has the most diverse ever or whatever because I didn't make that claim, just denouncing the stupid narrative that kept being peddled about Bernie bros.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Sanders is 2nd to Biden in black support. Nobody else is even in the double digits.
    Code:
    .48 Biden
    .20 Sanders
    .09 Warren
    Biden people can crow about racial diversity to Sanders. Nobody else can.

    I haven't seen a gender breakdown.
    After he gets fifth in Iowa this will likely change, his support is soft as hell.

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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    The Onion was 16 years ahead.


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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    He has the most support from women of any candidate and he has more non-white supporters than white. IDK if he has the most diverse ever or whatever because I didn't make that claim, just denouncing the stupid narrative that kept being peddled about Bernie bros.
    Again, source please. I'm not declaring this to be false, but also curious what's backing up these points.
    Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    We're going to see lots of anti-Bernie stuff. First of all, that's how races are run -- candidates plant negative narratives about other candidates. But secondly Sanders is also a big threat to a very powerful class of people in America and they are going to fight back. It really all does just come down to the humdrum reality of taxes. The rich have had a tax holiday in the US since Reagan and that has destroyed the country. They don't want it to stop. They can't win on the merits so they will use every tool they can to stop anybody who wants to restore fairness.

    That doesn't mean the people who spread these memes are witting. Most of them are quite, quite unwitting (have you met Rover?). But it does mean the stakes are higher than usual for TPTB when it comes to stopping Sanders. I am frankly amazed he has not been accused of pedophilia yet. That's usually the go to.
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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    We're going to see lots of anti-Bernie stuff. First of all, that's how races are run -- candidates plant negative narratives about other candidates. But secondly Sanders is also a big threat to a very powerful class of people in America and they are going to fight back. It really all does just come down to the humdrum reality of taxes. The rich have had a tax holiday in the US since Reagan and that has destroyed the country. They don't want it to stop. They can't win on the merits so they will use every tool they can to stop anybody who wants to restore fairness.

    That doesn't mean the people who spread these memes are witting. Most of them are quite, quite unwitting (have you met Rover?). But it does mean the stakes are higher than usual for TPTB when it comes to stopping Sanders. I am frankly amazed he has not been accused of pedophilia yet. That's usually the go to.
    Paranoid much?
    Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

    Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

    "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Again, source please. I'm not declaring this to be false, but also curious what's backing up these points.
    It is for these reasons that young women were found by an Economist analysis to form a larger core of Sanders’s base than men do — and less than half of his supporters are white, according to an August Pew Research Center report.
    There was a recent NPR poll that showed him leading among POC too.

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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Paranoid much?
    Like i said.
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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Again, source please. I'm not declaring this to be false, but also curious what's backing up these points.
    There is no metric. However, let's look at the campaign.

    Co-chairs: Ben Cohen, Rep. Ro Khanna, Sen. Nina Turner, San Juan Mayor Carmen Yulín Cruz. No diversity there. The other top members are probably Bernie Bros too! The campaign manager is Faiz Shakir, the political director is Analilia Mejia and the communications director is Carli Stevenson. Look at all the Bernie Bros! It's amazing!

    Shakir's role as campaign manager makes him the first Muslim campaign manager for a major party U.S. presidential campaign, and the first Pakistani-American to hold the position.
    Nope. No diversity. Sorry I made such an outlandish claim.

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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by ticapnews View Post
    There is no metric. However, let's look at the campaign.

    Co-chairs: Ben Cohen, Rep. Ro Khanna, Sen. Nina Turner, San Juan Mayor Carmen Yulín Cruz. No diversity there. The other top members are probably Bernie Bros too! The campaign manager is Faiz Shakir, the political director is Analilia Mejia and the communications director is Carli Stevenson. Look at all the Bernie Bros! It's amazing!



    Nope. No diversity. Sorry I made such an outlandish claim.
    Your claim was that he had the most diverse campaign in history nobody seems to be able to back up except for anecdotal observations. Your last sentence is merely a strawman argument that nobody actually made.
    Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

    Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

    "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Your claim was that he had the most diverse campaign in history nobody seems to be able to back up except for anecdotal observations. Your last sentence is merely a strawman argument that nobody actually made.
    I know you're not talking to me but I did however cite a hard metric that Sanders is the second-most popular choice among non-Hispanic black voters after Biden. So the dismissal of Sanders as a purely white phenomenon is rebutted. And that is the key issue here.

    If we are moving towards Biden v Sanders then all of the demographic factors cancel and we are left with, essentially, Rover vs Kepler for the nomination.
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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Your claim was that he had the most diverse campaign in history nobody seems to be able to back up except for anecdotal observations. Your last sentence is merely a strawman argument that nobody actually made.
    You moved the goalposts. I said one of the most diverse in history, you just changed it to the most diverse in history.

    Just out of curiosity, who else would you consider has had a diverse campaign in history? Lincoln? FDR? JFK? Bush? Think they had a lot of women? POC? Religious diversity?

    Let's look at Obama's 2008 campaign staff:

    from wikipedia

    David Plouffe (Manager)
    Penny Pritzker (Finance)
    David Axelrod (Media)
    Michael Slaby (Chief Technology Officer)
    Robert Gibbs (Communications)
    Bill Burton (Spokesman)
    Henry De Sio (Chief Operating Officer)
    Claire McCaskill (Co-Chair)
    Tim Kaine (Co-Chair)
    Paul Hodes (Co-Chair)

    Yeah, lots of diversity there.

    As I said, sorry I made such an outlandish claim. Obviously the people in this thread are much more able to speak on diversity than he is. Just look how diverse this group is in comparison.

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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by ticapnews View Post
    Just look how diverse this group is in comparison.
    Hey! We root for lots of different teams!
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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Hey! We root for lots of different teams!
    Exactly! It's like a Sniffles rally. "A white guy in a red hat standing next to a white guy with no hat standing next to a white guy with a red hat on backwards." Diversity!

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    Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by ticapnews View Post
    Exactly! It's like a Sniffles rally. "A white guy in a red hat standing next to a white guy with no hat standing next to a white guy with a red hat on backwards." Diversity!
    To be fair they each have a different kind of cancer.
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