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Thread: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

  1. #681
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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    I have a feeling things like this will just start getting more common.

    https://www.citypages.com/news/crafty...bill/512947951

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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Holy mail fraud! Xcel might also have a case for having their logo used to misrepresent this.

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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartanforlife4 View Post
    Hyperbole generally works better when not preceded by what you’d find in a generic Facebook comment. Your statement was no different than what you’d find on any bathroom bill story.
    Back in 2016, when bathroom bills started popping up, comments like "I'll beat up/shoot any trans person using the bathroom" were prevalent on Facebook. This is why I was scared to come out on Facebook then, knowing the comments I would get back.

    Also, I've heard all the "trans people are ruining sports" arguments before. From Republicans. For me, I'm no longer trying to refute those claims, not because those claims are wrong, but because Republicans have basically stuffed their fingers in their ears and gone "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" It is useless to keep refuting those claims if Republicans choose not to listen.
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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Quote Originally Posted by MissThundercat View Post

    Also, I've heard all the "trans people are ruining sports" arguments before. From Republicans. For me, I'm no longer trying to refute those claims, not because those claims are wrong, but because Republicans have basically stuffed their fingers in their ears and gone "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" It is useless to keep refuting those claims if Republicans choose not to listen.
    To be honest, sports are a different segment when it comes to the argument here. At "elite" levels, the right to compete is a privilege that WILL be abused. It's the simple fact that male biology is better equipped to handle physical exertion better than female biology. There is no denying that. Combine it with a "win at all costs" attitude and you have a ripe atmosphere for exploitation.

    As an amateur athlete, should this effect you MT? I'd mostly say no. That's what logic says. You running the YOUR AD HERE 10k on a random Saturday should 100% not be infringed on. But when you start talking elite high school athletics, NCAA, and pro/international competition, it becomes a completely different animal.

    I really hope that you don't take this as a personal attack. I support you being you in 99.98% of what you do. Elite athletics fall into that .02% however. And there is supporting science behind the reasoning. It's simply biological and economic reasoning. No social, psychological, or other sciences that are in play with this aspect. Obviously this is drastically different when looking at what the LGBTQ community need to fight through on a daily basis. And I get that you don't want this to be the starting point of a "slippery slope". But elite athletics are far more likely to be exploited than open choice of bathrooms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissThundercat View Post
    Back in 2016, when bathroom bills started popping up, comments like "I'll beat up/shoot any trans person using the bathroom" were prevalent on Facebook. This is why I was scared to come out on Facebook then, knowing the comments I would get back.

    Also, I've heard all the "trans people are ruining sports" arguments before. From Republicans. For me, I'm no longer trying to refute those claims, not because those claims are wrong, but because Republicans have basically stuffed their fingers in their ears and gone "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" It is useless to keep refuting those claims if Republicans choose not to listen.
    The sports stuff cracks me up. I constantly hear how inferior women are and that no one wants to watch their sports yet a bunch of dudes are yelling about trans ruining women’s sports

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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Quote Originally Posted by MissThundercat View Post
    Back in 2016, when bathroom bills started popping up, comments like "I'll beat up/shoot any trans person using the bathroom" were prevalent on Facebook. This is why I was scared to come out on Facebook then, knowing the comments I would get back.

    Also, I've heard all the "trans people are ruining sports" arguments before. From Republicans. For me, I'm no longer trying to refute those claims, not because those claims are wrong, but because Republicans have basically stuffed their fingers in their ears and gone "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" It is useless to keep refuting those claims if Republicans choose not to listen.
    I'd like to make it clear that the bolded is not what I have been posting. I'm wondering what new rules/regulations will be written to figure out where the line is for male/female eligibility in each other's sport.
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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Quote Originally Posted by RaceBoarder View Post
    To be honest, sports are a different segment when it comes to the argument here. At "elite" levels, the right to compete is a privilege that WILL be abused. It's the simple fact that male biology is better equipped to handle physical exertion better than female biology. There is no denying that. Combine it with a "win at all costs" attitude and you have a ripe atmosphere for exploitation.

    As an amateur athlete, should this effect you MT? I'd mostly say no. That's what logic says. You running the YOUR AD HERE 10k on a random Saturday should 100% not be infringed on. But when you start talking elite high school athletics, NCAA, and pro/international competition, it becomes a completely different animal.

    I really hope that you don't take this as a personal attack. I support you being you in 99.98% of what you do. Elite athletics fall into that .02% however. And there is supporting science behind the reasoning. It's simply biological and economic reasoning. No social, psychological, or other sciences that are in play with this aspect. Obviously this is drastically different when looking at what the LGBTQ community need to fight through on a daily basis. And I get that you don't want this to be the starting point of a "slippery slope". But elite athletics are far more likely to be exploited than open choice of bathrooms.
    Thank god no one has found a way to cheat in "elite" athletics up until now

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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
    I have a feeling things like this will just start getting more common.

    https://www.citypages.com/news/crafty...bill/512947951
    “It’s true that Omar has said things that were freighted with anti-Semitism, for which she has expressed regret,” the article says (more on that here). “But it is grotesque to argue that that excuses racism against her, or that Trump’s taunts have anything to do with protecting Jews.”
    This is the money quote and it is what the GOP doesnt seem to understand. They think just because they pretend to care about Jews this week Jews all of a sudden back them. This ignores all logic and fact...which I guess parallels everything those neanderthals do. The Jews understand what the GOP is doing, in part because we do this moron thing called thinking and in part because the GOP isnt exactly hiding their strategy well. It is like playing poker with a 4 year old.

    Just because Omar MAY have said something Anti-Semitic doesnt make it ok to make racist comments about her. I believe it is in Kindergarten when they teach you "2 wrongs dont make a right".
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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Quote Originally Posted by jerphisch View Post
    Thank god no one has found a way to cheat in "elite" athletics up until now
    That doesn't make it okay in any form.

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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    This is the money quote and it is what the GOP doesnt seem to understand. They think just because they pretend to care about Jews this week Jews all of a sudden back them. This ignores all logic and fact...which I guess parallels everything those neanderthals do. The Jews understand what the GOP is doing, in part because we do this moron thing called thinking and in part because the GOP isnt exactly hiding their strategy well. It is like playing poker with a 4 year old.

    Just because Omar MAY have said something Anti-Semitic doesnt make it ok to make racist comments about her. I believe it is in Kindergarten when they teach you "2 wrongs dont make a right".
    One of the open questions about Republican strategy is whether any of it is intended to reach outside their killing jar or whether it's all just incendiaries to keep the home hate fires burning and the effect on the free world is incidental.

    Cruz is a classic example. Although nowhere near as smart as he thinks he is he is not a moron. Yet he continually relies on asinine tropes and rock stupid narratives. Does he know they are stupid? Up until recently I just assumed Republicans like Cruz cynically peddled insanity/stupidity to their base in order to keep the votes and money flowing. God knows it works. But I'm starting to suspect he actually doesn't understand that what he is saying is stupid. Ideology is incredibly strong and can warp a brain to the point of unusability.
    Last edited by Kepler; 07-22-2019 at 11:15 AM.
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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Slap Shot View Post
    That doesn't make it okay in any form.
    It makes it shallow transphobic concern trolling. "I support trans people and all, but won't someone think of the sports!"

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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Quote Originally Posted by jerphisch View Post
    It makes it shallow transphobic concern trolling. "I support trans people and all, but won't someone think of the sports!"
    You are simply not understanding the question(s).

    Can a person who simply IDs as the other gender enter that other gender's sport (no physical changes)?
    Concerning physical changes, how much has to change to enter that other gender's sport? This would include outer physical attributes as well as internal ones (hormones/etc).
    Where will those lines be drawn?
    What if the things one has to take to make a full switch to the other gender falls under the "Banned Substances" list of a sport?

    I think it will be very interesting to see how this all plays out.
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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    It will play out.

    You may not realize this but concerns about this have been cynically used as a way to stoke fear and resentment against trans people. It's a little like saying "we should analyze racial differences in cranial capacity." I mean, sure, we can do that. But please be aware that 99% of the people who bring cranial capacity up have a very specific political agenda.

    Let me put it in a way you may be more sympathetic to:

    Studies have shown that people favoring gun rights also tend to react with greater stimulation of the amygdala when confronted with an ambiguously dangerous situation. This suggests that gun rights should perhaps not be uniform, but should be limited in precisely those instances in which people are more assertive in the need/desirability to possess firearms. Obviously this is a politically fraught thesis. I think it will be very interesting to see how this all plays out.
    Last edited by Kepler; 07-22-2019 at 11:44 AM.
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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    It will play out.

    You may not realize this but concerns about this have been cynically used as a way to stoke fear and resentment against trans people. It's a little like saying "we should analyze racial differences in cranial capacity." I mean, sure, we can do that. But please be aware that 98% of the people who bring cranial capacity up have a very specific political agenda.
    I am aware, hence me making it clear that is not what *I* am doing. I am genuinely curious. It's a complex issue.
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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rube View Post
    I am aware, hence me making it clear that is not what *I* am doing. I am genuinely curious. It's a complex issue.
    The guys who wrote The Bell Curve were genuinely curious, too. Was that a bad idea? Yeah, probably.

    "Objective research" along lines suggested by bigoted pre-conceptions, while theoretically well within the scientific method, is also generally speaking a bad idea. If nothing else untangling the public conception of both the research and the results is a public affairs nightmare, and designing experiments which are methodologically sound and don't run the risk of looking like Phrenology is 50 years also starts to look like a marginal return on the effort expended.

    There is nothing wrong with an idea, in principle. "Political conservatism is correlated with, and perhaps either explanatory of or a symptom indicating a lack of ethics or intelligence" is, indeed, a testable hypothesis. It may even be intuitively accurate. But I'm not sure that's the hill you want to die on.
    Last edited by Kepler; 07-22-2019 at 11:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    It will play out.

    You may not realize this but concerns about this have been cynically used as a way to stoke fear and resentment against trans people. It's a little like saying "we should analyze racial differences in cranial capacity." I mean, sure, we can do that. But please be aware that 99% of the people who bring cranial capacity up have a very specific political agenda.

    Let me put it in a way you may be more sympathetic to:

    Studies have shown that people favoring gun rights also tend to react with greater stimulation of the amygdala when confronted with an ambiguously dangerous situation. This suggests that gun rights should perhaps not be uniform, but should be limited in precisely those instances in which people are more assertive in the need/desirability to possess firearms. Obviously this is a politically fraught thesis. I think it will be very interesting to see how this all plays out.
    My wife is a runner. Will never win anything more than the local 5k or 10k with 200 entries, maybe occasionally place in an age group for races with slightly bigger fields. She has qualified for Boston several times.

    She understands that men's races/categories=open field and women's races are not because of the inherent biological differences. It's not that people would claim to be transgender just to win the race, but transgender females, especially pre surgery and pre hormonal treatment, would have an advantage competing in the women's categories against others. Testosterone is an amazing thing. It's the sole reason high school boys teams can beat high level professional women's teams.

    There will eventually be an Olympic level athlete like Jenner who transitions while still competing. Where is the line that keeps it fair for the other competitors?
    Last edited by unofan; 07-22-2019 at 12:25 PM.

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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    My wife is a marathon runner. Will never win anything more than the local 5k with 200 entries, maybe occasionally place in an age group for slightly bigger races.

    She understands that men's races/categories=open field and women's races are not because of the inherent biological differences. It's not that people would claim to be transgender just to win the race, but transgender females, especially pre surgery and pre hormonal treatment, would have an advantage competing in the women's categories against others. Testosterone is an amazing thing. It's the reason high school boys teams can beat high level professional women's teams.
    Warroad HS Boys team beat the US Women's Ice Hockey team in their prep-games for the last winter Olyimpics.
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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    I understand that this discussion sounds trans-phobic, but I'm genuinely curious to see how the issue evolves over time. And again the hardline stance pertains ONLY to "elite" competition.

    As UNO mentioned, testosterone is a hell of a performance enhancer for just about anything. Honest question: Is there a single sport (w/ objective timing/scoring, no judges) out there where a Women's World Record eclipses the Men's? Honest Question #2: Would East German female athletes from the 70s and 80s pass today's trans-gender screenings? That alone should show what testosterone alone can do.

    I will say too that this seems to be another example of a case where you're 100% with or 100% against something as a whole. There is no grey area. I'm an A-hole apparently because I don't want a "new" form of cheating to become prevalent in sports. Forget the other 99.98% of stuff that I support. I'm an a-hole all the way because I formed a hard, unpopular stance on this one thing

    Edit to add: What is the more likely scenario:

    - Pedophile/sexual predator using gender neutral bathrooms to gain access to their victims?
    - Obsessive sports influencers push an athlete to compete under the opposite sex (for reasons mentioned above I can guarantee this will be Male to Female) in order to win?

    Both COULD happen. But in my mind it's night/day as to which one is LIKELY to happen.
    Last edited by RaceBoarder; 07-22-2019 at 01:10 PM.
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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    One of the open questions about Republican strategy is whether any of it is intended to reach outside their killing jar or whether it's all just incendiaries to keep the home hate fires burning and the effect on the free world is incidental.

    Cruz is a classic example. Although nowhere near as smart as he thinks he is he is not a moron. Yet he continually relies on asinine tropes and rock stupid narratives. Does he know they are stupid? Up until recently I just assumed Republicans like Cruz cynically peddled insanity/stupidity to their base in order to keep the votes and money flowing. God knows it works. But I'm starting to suspect he actually doesn't understand that what he is saying is stupid. Ideology is incredibly strong and can warp a brain to the point of unusability.
    I always likened it to literature. (or any type of art really) I read "Grapes of Wrath" and it bores the [bleep] out of me and I get zero of what makes it great. Others can speak for hours on end about a specific chapter, the symbolism in the words and the poetics of the language. They talk about the historical aspects and who the characters remind them of in their lives. They have an understanding I just dont have.

    I think they understands the bare minimum of the context of what they are saying a lot of the time. They know basics, they know their sycophants eat it up and they know it keeps them in power. I think a lot of them have no clue beyond the surface though. They, like their Orange King, act out of gut reaction. There isnt a strategy behind, no reasoning or understanding. They throw around words and phrases and have zero clue what they even mean. I mean Jesus branding your enemies as Communists? What the heck year is this? (we wont get into the irony of a party in bed with a Soviet Style Leader branding others Communists) They equate Communism to Socialism and use them interchangeably and I think, to many of them, these are actually the same thing.
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    Re: Nice Planet: Screw It, I'm Outta Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    I always likened it to literature. (or any type of art really) I read "Grapes of Wrath" and it bores the [bleep] out of me and I get zero of what makes it great. Others can speak for hours on end about a specific chapter, the symbolism in the words and the poetics of the language. They talk about the historical aspects and who the characters remind them of in their lives. They have an understanding I just dont have.
    I'm with you on GoW BTW. I love slow, cerebral books but no, it's just f-cking horrible. Steinbeck in general is way overrated. Cannery Row is beautiful. The rest is bulk postage, especially GoW. (My IWW lifetime membership has now been rescinded.)

    You can write endless, symbolic literature and still have a wonderful story (Tolstoy, Melville, Dostoevsky, Hawthorne). Steinbeck for whatever reason doesn't do it for me. Neither does Balzac, who everybody is supposed to love, too.
    Last edited by Kepler; 07-22-2019 at 01:11 PM.
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