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Thread: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

  1. #361
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Quote Originally Posted by MissThundercat View Post
    Michigan doesn't have that policy. However, sexual orientation and gender identity are covered under Tyson's non-discrimination policy. So while I'm fortunate here, a trans sibling of mine works for a place where they find new ways to discriminate against her daily. In fact, she's afraid to have any surgery done because they will fire her.

    Here's the thing about outing that I want you to understand: in our community, we want to be the ones to tell our stories, to come out on our own terms, and to come out to the people we want to be out to. Others can't tell my story as good as I can tell it. Example: say I come out to dx, and he and I are walking and run into Brent. I don't want dx saying anything to Brent, as I was planning on telling Brent later at the bowling alley. My fear, and I emphasize that, is that she already told my story for me.
    In a workplace, there's a lot of legalities that come into play. That's the tough part. CYA. Cover. Your. Arse.
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rube View Post
    In a workplace, there's a lot of legalities that come into play. That's the tough part. CYA. Cover. Your. Arse.
    But I was also told by the assistant HR manager that I'm on my own for coming out to people. That if I wanted someone to know, I had to tell them personally. And I wanted to tell him that personally. But once again, my mind could very well be playing tricks on me right now.
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Quote Originally Posted by MissThundercat View Post
    But I was also told by the assistant HR manager that I'm on my own for coming out to people. That if I wanted someone to know, I had to tell them personally. And I wanted to tell him that personally. But once again, my mind could very well be playing tricks on me right now.
    HR is GOD of the workplace. For your everyday co-worker, yes, it's on you. HR has to know all, though.
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  4. #364
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Quote Originally Posted by MissThundercat View Post
    Michigan doesn't have that policy. However, sexual orientation and gender identity are covered under Tyson's non-discrimination policy. So while I'm fortunate here, a trans sibling of mine works for a place where they find new ways to discriminate against her daily. In fact, she's afraid to have any surgery done because they will fire her.

    Here's the thing about outing that I want you to understand: in our community, we want to be the ones to tell our stories, to come out on our own terms, and to come out to the people we want to be out to. Others can't tell my story as good as I can tell it. Example: say I come out to dx, and he and I are walking and run into Brent. I don't want dx saying anything to Brent, as I was planning on telling Brent later at the bowling alley. My fear, and I emphasize that, is that she already told my story for me.
    I fully understand that.*

    Unfortunately, HR departments often don’t have that kind of leeway. In fact, company policy may require disclosure. Supervisors within my company can be fired if they don’t report certain personnel issues. Does that include outing someone? Almost certainly not, unless there have been concerns in the past or there may be concerns or issues in the future.

    You sent an email that I would have immediately contacted an HR manager about if I received it. Not tomorrow, not in a few hours, immediately. Your exact words were
    For the past few days, I've been struggling with this. I seriously doubt I can trust you again, and I believe this contributes to a more hostile work environment for me. HR keeps telling me they don't need education or sensitivity training on LGBTQ issues, but I believe you all sincerely do. I've been willing to talk with all of you, but you don't want to listen.

    I also thought about bringing this to the new HR manager or to Eric Safin, but I feel they would tell me to settle it with you first, just like everything else there.
    This is your apparent liaison for HR issues and you told her you couldn’t trust her and that HR should look into LGBTQ training. There might be serious implications here for everyone involved and the company as a whole. This is precisely when a person should go to HR.

    This person was almost certainly wrong for not writing you the letter. Let me be perfectly clear about that. But she was not in the wrong with going to HR on this.

    *and please don’t presume I don’t understand (as much as I can) because I am not LGBTQ myself. I’ve been a fervent ally now for 15+ years now. I’ve donated, I’ve volunteered, and I’ve been involved in several positions within community leadership and company outreach programs pushing for changes. But most important of all, I’ve listened for 15 years. I have a long ways to go but I feel like I understand far more than the average person.

    My experience with LGBTQ community traces back to a dear friend of mine asking me if she was going to hell because she was a lesbian. That was the moment I became an ally and I have been evolving myself and pushing for changes shortly thereafter.
    Last edited by dxmnkd316; 08-29-2019 at 12:08 AM.

  5. #365
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Quote Originally Posted by MissThundercat View Post
    Michigan doesn't have that policy. However, sexual orientation and gender identity are covered under Tyson's non-discrimination policy. So while I'm fortunate here, a trans sibling of mine works for a place where they find new ways to discriminate against her daily. In fact, she's afraid to have any surgery done because they will fire her.

    Here's the thing about outing that I want you to understand: in our community, we want to be the ones to tell our stories, to come out on our own terms, and to come out to the people we want to be out to. Others can't tell my story as good as I can tell it. Example: say I come out to dx, and he and I are walking and run into Brent. I don't want dx saying anything to Brent, as I was planning on telling Brent later at the bowling alley. My fear, and I emphasize that, is that she already told my story for me.
    I understand wanting to come out on your own terms. I am a little confused about why this would be considered 'outing you'. I am curious to know how you think this should have played out. Others in your work place know already. You have been transitioning in your work place- you were employed as Bob and now are employed as Amber. Your employment file is would have this info. I see this as a positive proactive step- the HR person can't advocate for a positive work place environment if they are waiting for you to say something before 'knowing' about it. If you took awhile to say something they would have been at a disadvantage and if you had something happen they could say they didn't know to help you.

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    I fully understand that.*

    Unfortunately, HR departments often don’t have that kind of leeway. In fact, company policy may require disclosure. Supervisors within my company can be fired if they don’t report certain personnel issues. Does that include outing someone? Almost certainly not, unless there have been concerns in the past or there may be concerns or issues in the future.

    You sent an email that I would have immediately contacted an HR manager about if I received it. Not tomorrow, not in a few hours, immediately. Your exact words were


    This is your apparent liaison for HR issues and you told her you couldn’t trust her and that HR should look into LGBTQ training. There might be serious implications here for everyone involved and the company as a whole. This is precisely when a person should go to HR.

    This person was almost certainly wrong for not writing you the letter. Let me be perfectly clear about that. But she was not in the wrong with going to HR on this.

    *and please don’t presume I don’t understand (as much as I can) because I am not LGBTQ myself. I’ve been a fervent ally now for 15+ years now. I’ve donated, I’ve volunteered, and I’ve been involved in several positions within community leadership and company outreach programs pushing for changes. But most important of all, I’ve listened for 15 years. I have a long ways to go but I feel like I understand far more than the average person.

    My experience with LGBTQ community traces back to a dear friend of mine asking me if she was going to hell because she was a lesbian. That was the moment I became an ally and I have been evolving myself and pushing for changes shortly thereafter.
    While I agree about the person having a bad attitude, I disagree about it being wrong not writing the letter.* Maybe I don't understand how business works. In my profession anyone can ask for a recommendation but I am not obligated to write one, especially if I have reservations (no matter how misguided). IMHO if a person isn't comfortable that comes thru in the letter and it is better to have nothing rather than a lukewarm letter. I would rather have someone say no than not have the balls to tell me it would be a tepid letter.

    *in the vein of dx post- I too cannot presume to fully understand. I have traveled this journey with many of my patients, their families and a couple of friends. No matter how it goes or how well meaning people are, it usually involves some pain and discomfort.

    Listened to friends, kids, parents and extended family lament and be outraged about how the other side should see it their way or others should not pass judgment but love them as they are. I realized after some painful learning there is the way it 'should go', the best possible outcome in the circumstances and the suck outcome. No matter how much you or the people who love and accept you do the right thing there is no way to legislate the thoughts of others.

    The farther afield from your 'love circle' the less you can predict or expect. What I think or you think is not what others might think. Short of an act of God no one will agree on what the perfect world should be. You can't force them to change their thoughts or be reasonable if they aren't open to it. You can hold people accountable for their actions.

    The outrage felt when people suck may be righteous outrage but it can exhaust and it rarely changes what people think. Personally I have found it better to focus on what I can reasonably expect for behaviour. If you focus on how it 'should be' in a perfect world it rarely goes well. Most of the time that results in them continuing to suck, ratcheting it up because they need to show they are in control. Result is a no win where everyone is in a state of perpetual p1ssed offedness and no one has any peace. Better to focus on the people who are worth it.

  6. #366

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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    HR isn't about right and wrong, it's about the company covering itself. The company doesn't want work unit THX-1138 suing it about work unit THX-1139, whatever the reason. So the company will project support in order to facilitate sucking all the information it can about its workers so it can have a complete picture and protect itself.

    You have to act accordingly. Most things it makes no sense to withhold because (1) they can find out anyway and (2) in a legal setting you will always lose because the company has better lawyers and time on its side. There are obviously some things you never share with your employer under any circumstances.

    Always remember you have a fundamentally adversarial relationship with your company. Their incentive is to get you to trade as much of your freedom as they can demand for as little compensation as they are forced to provide. That is the essence of employment. It makes sociological sense for both employer and employee to mask this reality under layers of bunk, but never lose sight of it. An employer is a tool you use to make money but it will harm you unless you are vigilant.
    Last edited by Kepler; 08-29-2019 at 10:52 AM.
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Quote Originally Posted by leswp1 View Post
    I understand wanting to come out on your own terms. I am a little confused about why this would be considered 'outing you'. I am curious to know how you think this should have played out. Others in your work place know already. You have been transitioning in your work place- you were employed as Bob and now are employed as Amber. Your employment file is would have this info. I see this as a positive proactive step- the HR person can't advocate for a positive work place environment if they are waiting for you to say something before 'knowing' about it. If you took awhile to say something they would have been at a disadvantage and if you had something happen they could say they didn't know to help you.
    That's actually a fair point. There is no obligation. ANd you're also right that I would rather a person who enthusiastically supports me writes that letter than someone who doesn't.
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  8. #368
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    I think the issue is, and correct me if I'm wrong Amber, was that she had a face to face conversation with a chaplain. To me, that indicates a level of privacy that HR does not oversee. If the chaplain emailed HR about Amber without Amber's knowledge, I think that's wrong. If anything, the chaplain should have encouraged Amber to initiate that conversation with the new HR person, or offer to facilitate that conversation. I agree that the new HR manager should know but I do not agree that a chaplain should take it upon his or herself to share that information without the employee's knowledge.

  9. #369
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet View Post
    I think the issue is, and correct me if I'm wrong Amber, was that she had a face to face conversation with a chaplain. To me, that indicates a level of privacy that HR does not oversee. If the chaplain emailed HR about Amber without Amber's knowledge, I think that's wrong. If anything, the chaplain should have encouraged Amber to initiate that conversation with the new HR person, or offer to facilitate that conversation. I agree that the new HR manager should know but I do not agree that a chaplain should take it upon his or herself to share that information without the employee's knowledge.
    According to my latest cartoon training module we need to tell someone they will not be promised complete confidentiality if the person presents something. You aren't allowed to keep it confidential and if you don't report you can be open for termination or other punishment.

    What if Amber went to the HR person expecting a seamless transition when asking assistance and they had no idea what was happening. That would be awful. HR has been involved all along and Amber has been told right along to seek their assistance. It would be negligent for the person not to be briefed about what has been happening. If the Chaplain told a bunch of detail that wasn't pertinent that is not OK. Telling the HR of the basic situation would be expected. HR deals with all employees so don't they they need to know anything that might be impacting the unit, not just the person? (If I recall right others had been called on the carpet for their behaviour toward Amber- I would hope the HR person was told to watch they were behaving themselves)

    If the Chaplain is required absolute secrecy what would their procedure be after receiving the email complaining of their job performance? Or more generally if someone was going to do something that might harm themselves, others, the company? (serious question) In medicine anyone caring directly for the patient is considered part of the team. Anything that might impact their ability to care for the patient is shared. Business models are unfamiliar to me.
    Last edited by leswp1; 08-29-2019 at 03:12 PM.

  10. #370
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Situation resolved. My mind was playing tricks on me after all.

    Nothing specific was shared, just that I've been on medical leave and how best to continue supporting me as Tyson's one, known, open transgender person.

    I also signed a document saying "I identify as transgender;" the new person said they poked around my employee file and that came up. Truth is, new person treats this no different than a married woman changing her name.

    I also apologized to Chaplain for going after her like a hungry tiger even after I got the internship and the letters were granted by others. In the future, I will no longer assume she can write the letter just because.

    In many ways, I feel stupid.
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Quote Originally Posted by MissThundercat View Post
    Situation resolved. My mind was playing tricks on me after all.

    Nothing specific was shared, just that I've been on medical leave and how best to continue supporting me as Tyson's one, known, open transgender person.

    I also signed a document saying "I identify as transgender;" the new person said they poked around my employee file and that came up. Truth is, new person treats this no different than a married woman changing her name.

    I also apologized to Chaplain for going after her like a hungry tiger even after I got the internship and the letters were granted by others. In the future, I will no longer assume she can write the letter just because.

    In many ways, I feel stupid.
    Not stupid. Uninformed. You didn't know the rules.
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rube View Post
    Not stupid. Uninformed. You didn't know the rules.
    This. This isn't something most people have any idea how things work.

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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    I also told new person that in my community, there is often an "us against everybody" mentality, and even when I come to work, I sometimes have a "me against the world" attitude. Told him too that even though transgender acceptance is growing, we're not there yet.

    I told him that I did find surprising support with the current raw supervisors.

    And was honest with him that I have no idea when I'll be back to work.
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    List: As my coworker becomes more confident, she is becoming more prone to mistakes. This is getting annoying. I am less productive when she's here as a)she's a talker and b)I have to fix her mistakes (or help her fix her mistakes)

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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Quote Originally Posted by wolverineTrumpet View Post
    List: As my coworker becomes more confident, she is becoming more prone to mistakes. This is getting annoying. I am less productive when she's here as a)she's a talker and b)I have to fix her mistakes (or help her fix her mistakes)
    Peer or subordinate? The latter and it's easy. The former and you have to jump up a level and have a discussion.
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    I had a hunch my mailbox would be pretty empty on my birthday. Thanks to the Mama Bears from Free Mom Hugs, that's not the case. A whole bunch of other people asked for my address too, and knowing I'm going to have a happy birthday on September 20 is on the Anti-List.
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Odd number of slices in a bread loaf.
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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Peer or subordinate? The latter and it's easy. The former and you have to jump up a level and have a discussion.
    Peer-ish? Temp that was hired to backfill for me while I was recovering from surgery (I'd say maternity leave, but my company didn't offer such a thing). Now the other person in my department is on medical leave, so she's filling in for her. I think our boss sees the mistakes, and I think this last fairly large one has settled the coworker back down.

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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Realizing 2020 will be a 27-paycheck year is on the anti-list.

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    Re: The List for the 2018-19 Season: Episode 1

    Returning to work October 1 is on The Anti-List.

    Getting my old student loans out of default is on the Anti-List. I entered a 9 month rehabilitation plan, so no financial aid now. I will be able to come back to school in April 2020, when the default is cleared and my loan is transferred to a different service provider.

    Having the path cleared so I can focus on physical therapy and getting my foot completely healed is on The Anti-List.

    Upcoming swimming lessons are on the Anti-List too. Goal is Olympic distance triathlon next year! That's a 1500 meter swim, 24.8 mile bike ride, and a 10K run.
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