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Thread: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by aparch View Post
    Someone pointed out that each aggravated battery charge are six year minimums to be served consecutively, not concurrently, which is a minimum of 96 years. This allows his wife and kids to receive his pension while he effectively serves a life sentence.
    He's not going to spend the rest of his life in prison. Not even close.

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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
    He's not going to spend the rest of his life in prison. Not even close.
    If I am reading it correctly, 4-6 years in solitary? That's gonna sting.
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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by RaceBoarder View Post
    If that gets taken away, you set a precedent that will be far reaching. And IMHO, that is a precedent for the better...

    More than a few Chicago cops like to make it known how much they make. There is also a sizable crossover of those guys with those who use their guns & power over others as a d*ck enhancer. Show that if they act reckless and they will get kicked off the gravy train, you might get a few to take notice of their actions.
    So cops don't think about not committing murder because even though they might end up in prison their wives will still get paid?

    There is zero reason to punish the wife unless say in a cop that was committing crimes she was aware of and said nothing. You dissuade cops from committing crimes by putting them in effing jail when caught.

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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by Slap Shot View Post
    So cops don't think about not committing murder because even though they might end up in prison their wives will still get paid?

    There is zero reason to punish the wife unless say in a cop that was committing crimes she was aware of and said nothing. You dissuade cops from committing crimes by putting them in effing jail when caught.
    Iíve been mulling RaceBoarderís post over and I think I came to the same conclusion as you did.

    These cops who are out there shooting unarmed people arenít going to be dissuaded by his family getting punished after the fact. They are damaged goods.

    To think that theyíre going to pause before unloading an entire clip into an unarmed black man and ask, ďWill this hurt my family?Ē Thatís kind of absurd, right? At that moment thereís is no pausing. The adrenaline is flowing like a dam burst. Rationality isnít going to happen.

    The only way you prevent this is stop hiring racists and military hotheads who have been trained to have a completely different set of ROEs. They donít teach the type of deescalation needed for civilian law enforcement in the military. Sure, some of them are going to come back and understand the difference, there some of them arenít.

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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    Devil's Advocate response: why destroy MORE lives? The buck has to stop somewhere. Someone has to be the bigger person.

    And Fade's post was indeed an intelligent one.
    Bills of attainder and bills of pain were one of the things our founding fathers understood from the beginning should be prohibited, even before the Bill of Rights. If the victim's family wishes to bring a civil action seeking money damages, they can, and any successful money judgment would have an effect on the perp's family. Pension plans might be protected under bankruptcy laws, I don't know.

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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    The only way you prevent this is stop hiring racists and military hotheads who have been trained to have a completely different set of ROEs. They don’t teach the type of deescalation needed for civilian law enforcement in the military. Sure, some of them are going to come back and understand the difference, there some of them aren’t.
    And that's why you have to have an extensive hiring process + the academy to sort it out.

    The problem is, not every department has the hiring standards of the Michigan State Police. Our state flunkies often get hired in other states, or as county/city cops.
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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    And that's why you have to have an extensive hiring process + the academy to sort it out.

    The problem is, not every department has the hiring standards of the Michigan State Police. Our state flunkies often get hired in other states, or as county/city cops.
    Itís pretty evident thatís not working.

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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    And that's why you have to have an extensive hiring process + the academy to sort it out.

    The problem is, not every department has the hiring standards of the Michigan State Police. Our state flunkies often get hired in other states, or as county/city cops.
    Worse still are the officers fired for cause by one department who then catch on with another. More should be done to stop that from happening.

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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Itís clear that policing, like many things in this country (especially education), should be directly controlled at the state level at the lowest.

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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    Itís clear that policing, like many things in this country (especially education), should be directly controlled at the state level at the lowest.
    There are over 18,000 separate public law enforcement agencies in this country. For starters we should get rid of all of the county and local ones. "Local" police derive their power and authority from the state they work in, the state issues their certification and all are -- theoretically -- trained to the same standards in the state in which they work. And save for some local ordinances, the vast majority of the laws they enforce are consistent throughout the state. There should be one agency, the state police, that handles local law enforcement within a given state.

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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
    There are over 18,000 separate public law enforcement agencies in this country. For starters we should get rid of all of the county and local ones. "Local" police derive their power and authority from the state they work in, the state issues their certification and all are -- theoretically -- trained to the same standards in the state in which they work. And save for some local ordinances, the vast majority of the laws they enforce are consistent throughout the state. There should be one agency, the state police, that handles local law enforcement within a given state.
    I could go with that.

    What would the effect be if say, one is up for a certain level of rank, it would have to be federally approved, to make sure there is a certain universal standard applied? Or do we still keep that at state level?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    I could go with that.

    What would the effect be if say, one is up for a certain level of rank, it would have to be federally approved, to make sure there is a certain universal standard applied? Or do we still keep that at state level?
    Itíd be almost impossible to have something like that require federal approval so itís best to keep it at the state level.

    Policing and education are very similar in their application in this country. Wealthier areas are allowed to carve out their own funding areas to avoid sharing resources with the poor.

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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    Itíd be almost impossible to have something like that require federal approval so itís best to keep it at the state level.
    That is what I was thinking, but wanted to make sure.
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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    Policing and education are very similar in their application in this country. Wealthier areas are allowed to carve out their own funding areas to avoid sharing resources with the poor.
    One way they are vastly different though is how the ones that underperform are supported. When a public school system fails we take funds away by allowing charter schools to suck away some of their funding but when police departments underperform, people always want to hire more cops. My guess is if we hired more teachers at our underperforming schools most of them would get better.

    Between the Cleveland Police Department, Cleveland Clinic Police Department, the Cleveland State University Police Department and the Cuyahoga Metro Housing Authority Police Department (90% + of their properties are within Cleveland), there are nearly 2000 police officers working in Cleveland, a city with an estimated population of about 390,000 people. Compare that with South Bend, IN, a city with a little over 100,000 people and just 225 cops. There have been 11 murders within South Bend in 2018 and already there have been 100 in Cleveland. Half the city council in Cleveland, black members and white, think we need to hire 2, 3 or 400 more cops. South Bend and Cleveland are similar in lots of ways. Manufacturing cities that have seen better days, similar racial makeups, decades of one political party control and a health care system being the largest single employer. Clearly the number of police officers isn't the issue. Yet empirical studies repeatedly show that class size in a school is one of the largest factors in how successfully the kids learn and the only way to shrink class size is to have more teachers.

    Teachers pay for their own supplies all the time and schools hold bake sales so kids can play sports. When was the last time you saw cops holding a bake sale to pay for ammunition or $50,000 SUVs?

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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Thatís a great question.

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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    Iíve been mulling RaceBoarderís post over and I think I came to the same conclusion as you did.

    These cops who are out there shooting unarmed people arenít going to be dissuaded by his family getting punished after the fact. They are damaged goods.

    To think that theyíre going to pause before unloading an entire clip into an unarmed black man and ask, ďWill this hurt my family?Ē Thatís kind of absurd, right? At that moment thereís is no pausing. The adrenaline is flowing like a dam burst. Rationality isnít going to happen.

    The only way you prevent this is stop hiring racists and military hotheads who have been trained to have a completely different set of ROEs. They donít teach the type of deescalation needed for civilian law enforcement in the military. Sure, some of them are going to come back and understand the difference, there some of them arenít.
    Maybe...but I guess I can see both sides of this one. She shouldnt be punished, but then again she shouldnt be rewarded either. I dunno I guess I havent really thought about it enough to really break it down.
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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    Maybe...but I guess I can see both sides of this one. She shouldnt be punished, but then again she shouldnt be rewarded either. I dunno I guess I havent really thought about it enough to really break it down.
    ANd that's a really difficult balance to strike. How do you not reward her without punishing her? I tend to err on the side of not punishing her. If that means a few people get benefits they shouldn't, I'd rather have that than a few people who don't get benefits but should. I think it ultimately comes down to that philosophical question. Maybe that's oversimplifying it, because we should be able to judge each case on its merits.

    It's worth a debate as to how we treat the family in cases like this. It really deserves a thoughtful answer.
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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    ANd that's a really difficult balance to strike. How do you not reward her without punishing her? I tend to err on the side of not punishing her. If that means a few people get benefits they shouldn't, I'd rather have that than a few people who don't get benefits but should. I think it ultimately comes down to that philosophical question. Maybe that's oversimplifying it, because we should be able to judge each case on its merits.

    It's worth a debate as to how we treat the family in cases like this. It really deserves a thoughtful answer.
    I guess the way I look at it is this.

    First, the public pension is ordinarily a benefit that is provided in lieu of say a 401k retirement program, or perhaps higher pay, that you might see in the private sector. If an employee working for a corporation shoots a co-worker and goes to prison, we don't automatically seize his 401k or any money he has saved himself. That's really what the public pension is.

    The innocent spouse does receive some "punishment" as a result of the cop losing his job and going to prison. She loses out on whatever additional pension or financial benefits he might have achieved if he had remained employed in good standing, to say nothing of his pay.
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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    ANd that's a really difficult balance to strike. How do you not reward her without punishing her? I tend to err on the side of not punishing her. If that means a few people get benefits they shouldn't, I'd rather have that than a few people who don't get benefits but should. I think it ultimately comes down to that philosophical question. Maybe that's oversimplifying it, because we should be able to judge each case on its merits.

    It's worth a debate as to how we treat the family in cases like this. It really deserves a thoughtful answer.
    The primary purpose of criminal courts is to punish the wrongdoer. The function of civil courts (in damages cases) is to compensate the injured, which usually means the wrongdoer coughs up some or all of his money. The more harm he causes, the more money he will give up. Insurance is typically not available for these kinds of wrongs because of intentional acts exclusion.

    At least two factors could affect how much this affects the spouse of the wrongdoer. State marital property law will affect how much of their mutual assets are available for judgment against only one of them. Bankruptcy may also protect some assets, such as retirement plans.

    Unless the spouse or other family member is a provable conspirator or accomplice, they should not be punished for a relationship. Civil court can make that happen indirectly by making the wrongdoer pay money that would otherwise be enjoyed by the spouse.

    Pension plans can contain their own contract conditions, of course, and that's a union matter for cops, I assume.

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    Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    I guess the way I look at it is this.

    First, the public pension is ordinarily a benefit that is provided in lieu of say a 401k retirement program, or perhaps higher pay, that you might see in the private sector. If an employee working for a corporation shoots a co-worker and goes to prison, we don't automatically seize his 401k or any money he has saved himself. That's really what the public pension is.

    The innocent spouse does receive some "punishment" as a result of the cop losing his job and going to prison. She loses out on whatever additional pension or financial benefits he might have achieved if he had remained employed in good standing, to say nothing of his pay.
    Quote Originally Posted by burd View Post
    The primary purpose of criminal courts is to punish the wrongdoer. The function of civil courts (in damages cases) is to compensate the injured, which usually means the wrongdoer coughs up some or all of his money. The more harm he causes, the more money he will give up. Insurance is typically not available for these kinds of wrongs because of intentional acts exclusion.

    At least two factors could affect how much this affects the spouse of the wrongdoer. State marital property law will affect how much of their mutual assets are available for judgment against only one of them. Bankruptcy may also protect some assets, such as retirement plans.

    Unless the spouse or other family member is a provable conspirator or accomplice, they should not be punished for a relationship. Civil court can make that happen indirectly by making the wrongdoer pay money that would otherwise be enjoyed by the spouse.

    Pension plans can contain their own contract conditions, of course, and that's a union matter for cops, I assume.
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