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Thread: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

  1. #161
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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    Like usual, you guys are missing the obvious, so Iíll have to state it even so you morons see it:
    The US players said when they struck before that they were doing it for the 10 & 12 year old girls, that was the most effective persuasion statement (some would say conformance) since politicians said ďyou are either with us or against usĒ before the Iraq war. To not go along with it meant you were against 10 year old girls, and who would want that hanging over your head? Yet, when it was all over the only ones that benefited were the National team members. Deja Vu, here are we are again. Once again they are using peer pressure, who stands to gain, who stands to lose?
    Those that were in the Canadian league can only win, regardless of what happens, right now they have nothing. The US Olympic players (national team members really) are next in line to win the most, they will still participate in hockey even if they donít play in the NWHL. And both those two groups will be the most likely to get the big money if the NHL steps in, with the 1st choice of where they want to play.

    The ones that lose the most are the ones that arenít on a national team, and has been proven, they are not necessarily of lesser talent. If the NHL steps in they are the ones most likely to get the second class treatment (and second class wages) and get stuck having to either accept a new team in a city they donít really want to go or stay where they are and look for an alternative to pro hockey if they want to keep playing.

    And the 10-12 year old girls? I wouldnít hold my breathe for anything to change there (take a look at the committee members formed as a result of the Olympic boycott, the lack of any present national team members, and the results).

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by pokechecker View Post
    Like usual, you guys are missing the obvious, so Iíll have to state it even so you morons see it:
    I've always considered myself more of a nincompoop, but thank you.

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by pokechecker View Post
    Like usual, you guys are missing the obvious, so Iíll have to state it even so you morons see it:
    The US players said when they struck before that they were doing it for the 10 & 12 year old girls, that was the most effective persuasion statement (some would say conformance) since politicians said ďyou are either with us or against usĒ before the Iraq war. To not go along with it meant you were against 10 year old girls, and who would want that hanging over your head? Yet, when it was all over the only ones that benefited were the National team members. Deja Vu, here are we are again. Once again they are using peer pressure, who stands to gain, who stands to lose?
    Those that were in the Canadian league can only win, regardless of what happens, right now they have nothing. The US Olympic players (national team members really) are next in line to win the most, they will still participate in hockey even if they donít play in the NWHL. And both those two groups will be the most likely to get the big money if the NHL steps in, with the 1st choice of where they want to play.

    The ones that lose the most are the ones that arenít on a national team, and has been proven, they are not necessarily of lesser talent. If the NHL steps in they are the ones most likely to get the second class treatment (and second class wages) and get stuck having to either accept a new team in a city they donít really want to go or stay where they are and look for an alternative to pro hockey if they want to keep playing.

    And the 10-12 year old girls? I wouldnít hold my breathe for anything to change there (take a look at the committee members formed as a result of the Olympic boycott, the lack of any present national team members, and the results).
    There is a lot more going on behind the scenes every week that the public is not privy to. The players who have chosen not to play in North America this year will be afforded other opportunities in 2019-20. As far as this benefitting the Olympians almost exclusively - yes. Any future league supported by the NHL would probably start with 4-6 teams; many current NWHL and former CWHL players would be without a team. Probably a kindness for most of the women that will be left out, since they made around $2,500 for playing last season. I can't imagine any new league is all of a sudden going to be able to justify $50,000+ salaries - professional soccer players make as much as $35,000. The national team athletes may be able to parlay a reasonable salary, national team stipends, operating summer camps, and olympic year compensation into an average liveable wage.

    The bigger picture for the movement seems to be establishing a viable league that can provide a minimum set of benefits (wage, insurance coverage, access to professional training, etc.), and build up to salary compensation that is generous enough to live comfortably on. Regardless of the outcome, it will be a long process that this generation of hockey players will not likely see the full benefits of - so yes for 10-12 year olds.

    Either way it is a difficult decision and a sacrifice for these young women to put the careers and lives on hold for such a paultry salary. The current pay structure does not support a professional league. When you have to hold down a "real" full time job, to play hockey a few hours a week, that is not what established professional sports look like (basketball, golf, tennis).


    The Whitecaps are on the Gopher's preliminary schedule for a September 22nd exhibition, but how many national-level players will the Whitecaps have on their roster? As of now Coyne-Schofield, Brandt and Stecklein are boycotting the league, so unless something happens that would change their minds they (and others) could very well not be playing organized hockey in the upcoming season. Right now everything is pretty much up in the air, so things could - any probably will - see drastic change.
    I don't think any of the national team members will be part of the Whitecaps this season (or anyone else who has joined the "for the game" movement)
    A few things could change that -
    The NWHL folds, and the Whitecaps become independent again (the NWHL never finalized the purchase of the Whitecaps, so technically Jack Brodt still retains control)
    The Whitecaps leave the NWHL
    The NWHL strike a deal with the players or NHL

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by arenalife View Post
    Either way it is a difficult decision and a sacrifice for these young women to put the careers and lives on hold for such a paultry salary. The current pay structure does not support a professional league. When you have to hold down a "real" full time job, to play hockey a few hours a week, that is not what established professional sports look like (basketball, golf, tennis)
    Interesting you donít mention hockey, football or baseball as established professional sports. All three which have older established professional leagues than basketball (and golf and tennis are individual sports, not team sports). In the case of baseball many players usually had to have off-season jobs to make a living before WWII. From the end of WWII until the first CBA in 1965 the minimum salary was $6,000 (a period of 20 years). With the advent of the CBA that was raised to $10,000, with the MLB average $19,000. The NL started in 1876, so it took a long time before most baseball players could live off just their baseball salaries.

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by arenalife View Post
    There is a lot more going on behind the scenes every week that the public is not privy to. The players who have chosen not to play in North America this year will be afforded other opportunities in 2019-20. As far as this benefitting the Olympians almost exclusively - yes. Any future league supported by the NHL would probably start with 4-6 teams; many current NWHL and former CWHL players would be without a team. Probably a kindness for most of the women that will be left out, since they made around $2,500 for playing last season. I can't imagine any new league is all of a sudden going to be able to justify $50,000+ salaries - professional soccer players make as much as $35,000. The national team athletes may be able to parlay a reasonable salary, national team stipends, operating summer camps, and olympic year compensation into an average liveable wage.

    The bigger picture for the movement seems to be establishing a viable league that can provide a minimum set of benefits (wage, insurance coverage, access to professional training, etc.), and build up to salary compensation that is generous enough to live comfortably on. Regardless of the outcome, it will be a long process that this generation of hockey players will not likely see the full benefits of - so yes for 10-12 year olds.

    Either way it is a difficult decision and a sacrifice for these young women to put the careers and lives on hold for such a paultry salary. The current pay structure does not support a professional league. When you have to hold down a "real" full time job, to play hockey a few hours a week, that is not what established professional sports look like (basketball, golf, tennis).



    I don't think any of the national team members will be part of the Whitecaps this season (or anyone else who has joined the "for the game" movement)
    A few things could change that -
    The NWHL folds, and the Whitecaps become independent again (the NWHL never finalized the purchase of the Whitecaps, so technically Jack Brodt still retains control)
    The Whitecaps leave the NWHL
    The NWHL strike a deal with the players or NHL
    Don’t you have that backwards? Wouldn’t it be kind to the national team members for the NHL to say: “no thanks, find somebody else to support you, get a real job”?
    The fortunate, and some would say smart ones, are the ones that didn’t put their career on hold. Imagine that you completed your college eligibility in the last couple of years since the NWHL started. You found a job in one of those cities and you began playing in the league. With the way the economy has been going the ones that pursued a worthwhile degree in college are making $80K give or take $30K. If they are getting paid 2-3K to play hockey the league is picking up the tab for their “hobby”. I doubt any of them are looking at a wage from “pro” hockey to support them, nor do they need it. And many of them are just as talented hockey players as the national team members.

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    Interesting you donít mention hockey, football or baseball as established professional sports. All three which have older established professional leagues than basketball (and golf and tennis are individual sports, not team sports). In the case of baseball many players usually had to have off-season jobs to make a living before WWII. From the end of WWII until the first CBA in 1965 the minimum salary was $6,000 (a period of 20 years). With the advent of the CBA that was raised to $10,000, with the MLB average $19,000. The NL started in 1876, so it took a long time before most baseball players could live off just their baseball salaries.

    Sean
    Even well past WWII. In the 50s, Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford talked about having off-season jobs. And they were the top players on the Yankees. Heck, Mantle, Ford, Roger Maris, and one other player I can't remember roomed together in a Brooklyn apartment for budget reasons. (They used to get ribbed by the local Dodgers' fans whenever they were out in the neighborhood.) Spring training was truly to get themselves back into shape because they were all working during the off season.

    Even in the 80s, players were preparing for jobs after sports, because they could not live off their playing salaries much past their playing time. Local companies would sometimes hire them as interns to help them prepare for a career. My first job out of college in 1982 was at Grumman Aerospace on Long Island. The HR intern who processed me in on my first day was none other than Harry Carson of the NY Giants. He told me why he was there -- to prepare for a post-football career. When he shook my hand, my hand disappeared in his...
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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    First, I can't wait to see the day that these young ladies get paid and get paid big time! To me women's hockey is a delight to watch and I wish they played year round. But for now, how is them getting paid more is a good idea? The WNBA lost 12 million dollars last year and is much more popular. Nothing that loses money is good for growing any game of any kind or any gender. The question these women are literally asking is one question, "will you lose millions so we can play hockey for a living?" The equality is there at every level except a monetary one. I really want someone to articulate and respond to this question, "specifically who is supposed to lose the money?" The NHL? Why?

    To anyone who reads into this as being a hater I apologize. Girls and Ladies I am rooting for you big time!!! Just don't think this approach is helping my 12 year old in the future!

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by HockeyThumper View Post
    First, I can't wait to see the day that these young ladies get paid and get paid big time! To me women's hockey is a delight to watch and I wish they played year round. But for now, how is them getting paid more is a good idea? The WNBA lost 12 million dollars last year and is much more popular. Nothing that loses money is good for growing any game of any kind or any gender. The question these women are literally asking is one question, "will you lose millions so we can play hockey for a living?" The equality is there at every level except a monetary one. I really want someone to articulate and respond to this question, "specifically who is supposed to lose the money?" The NHL? Why?

    To anyone who reads into this as being a hater I apologize. Girls and Ladies I am rooting for you big time!!! Just don't think this approach is helping my 12 year old in the future!
    The only way the NHL is willing to lose money is if they justify it as a marketing expense. Which is how the NBA justifies it.
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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    not all of the NBA teams are losing money
    second, it's not whether a team 's bottom line is in the red or black so much as it is the valuation of the team.
    If the value is going up, they can stand to lose a little money.
    My guess is that is the whole point of the NWHL, they couldn't seriously think they could make money do they?
    Could they really be that naive?
    I've always thought they hoped to build a league and others would then buy a franchise as they expand.
    And the original teams would make up for all the money they lost by their increase in valuation in addition to the franchise fees.

    That's one of the ways the NHL makes money now, Vegas spent $500 million for their team, Seattle is paying $650.
    And that increases the value of the other teams in addition to splitting that money amongst the owners.

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    I just really hope they get this together and provide an opportunity for the players to play. The obvious unity and collaboration needed for success is clearer than water for all to see. The cooperate support especially lead by the NHL needs to support the female game. They need a modern, progressive and smart plans to implement a successful model. Strong leadership and unity is critical!

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeynation View Post
    I just really hope they get this together and provide an opportunity for the players to play. The obvious unity and collaboration needed for success is clearer than water for all to see. The cooperate support especially lead by the NHL needs to support the female game. They need a modern, progressive and smart plans to implement a successful model. Strong leadership and unity is critical!
    last I checked, the NHL is not a non-profit and they are already supporting them

    When the Canadian league folded the NHL said they were shifting their share of monetary support of that league to the NWHL, they could easily double or triple that and save big over trying to start a women’s league on their own. They have long said two leagues need to be one, now that there is one, why would they start another? As long as the NWHL exists, why would the NHL step in?

    That apparently is what the boycotters are trying to do, kill the NWHL so the NHL steps in. To do that they need the non-national team members to fall in line and boycott the NWHL too. Many of those players have jobs and medical insurance that would cover injuries suffered during practice or games. Consequently, two of the main points may be of no interest to them, they already have an income that supports them, and medical insurance. Given they have conceivably been training for 4 or 5 years in college, they have a good idea what it takes in the gym and how much does a membership cost? Some likely have it free through work. I would guess many just want a chance to play high end hockey.

    Asking the non-national team members to give up that chance … well if these were men they’d say what do I get out of the deal? You are asking me to give up hockey so you can get a livable wage and health insurance, I already have that.
    I guess that’s the difference between men and women.

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by pokechecker View Post
    When the Canadian league folded the NHL said they were shifting their share of monetary support of that league to the NWHL, they could easily double or triple that and save big over trying to start a women’s league on their own. They have long said two leagues need to be one, now that there is one, why would they start another? As long as the NWHL exists, why would the NHL step in?
    Bettman hasn't just said that the NHL is waiting for just one league. He has explicitly said that the NHL doesn't believe in the NWHL, and will not go any farther in supporting it.

    That apparently is what the boycotters are trying to do, kill the NWHL so the NHL steps in. To do that they need the non-national team members to fall in line and boycott the NWHL too. Many of those players have jobs and medical insurance that would cover injuries suffered during practice or games.
    And you know this how? Getting insurance that would cover hockey related injuries is one of the things that the players have stated most worries them about the state of the NWHL.

    Consequently, two of the main points may be of no interest to them, they already have an income that supports them . . .
    Most of the players have been making very large financial sacrifices to play. They may have a job, though some have said that they are being supported by parents, but they are forgoing income and better job prospects in order to be able to devote the time needed to play professional hockey.

    Given they have conceivably been training for 4 or 5 years in college, they have a good idea what it takes in the gym and how much does a membership cost? Some likely have it free through work. I would guess many just want a chance to play high end hockey.
    If you think that a gym membership is anything close to sufficient to stay in hockey shape, you're delusional. Which, I guess, means that you obviously believe exactly that.

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    Perhaps I've been reading this thread incorrectly (and I'm certain there are many that will be willing to help with clarification!), but is the goal to create a women's professional league so the players do not have to ever have other jobs and can make a living off their salary, or is the goal to have somewhere for the players to play in between Olympic years?

    I say this because these would be two separate things. If it's the first, I'm just not sure there's ever going to be funding, a fan base, sustainability, and especially talent depth to ever have this. If it's the latter, I also think that the current US players have forgotten that being an Olympian is still for an amateur athlete. It's not MEANT to be your 100% job. There are no luge leagues, there are no skiing leagues - those Olympic athletes find ways to train, have other jobs to pay the bills, and make it work. The ones that are the faces of their respective sports are the ones who profit the most and can live off endorsement deals, speaking gigs, etc. Remember how PO'd everyone was when the NHL started to send their players to the Olympics? The argument was that these guys have jobs in their sport and it takes away from the 'amateurism' of it all.

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    Not sure this sit out is going to work...I saw that the Pride has signed 4 players that they had drafted and I think they have a total of 6 or 7 so far. (from the website). I would love there to be a way for these girls to make a living playing hockey at a high level, but I don't see that happening yet. It was very recently that the Boston Breakers soccer team folded and field space is a lot cheaper than ice time and equipment. It would be a big sacrifice for the non-national team players to sit out a year. For some, they are not ready to quit playing and a year off may as well be forever.

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by MAHOCKEY FAN View Post
    Not sure this sit out is going to work...I saw that the Pride has signed 4 players that they had drafted and I think they have a total of 6 or 7 so far. (from the website). I would love there to be a way for these girls to make a living playing hockey at a high level, but I don't see that happening yet. It was very recently that the Boston Breakers soccer team folded and field space is a lot cheaper than ice time and equipment. It would be a big sacrifice for the non-national team players to sit out a year. For some, they are not ready to quit playing and a year off may as well be forever.
    The pride have signed six total, CT signed three (the last one being a CIS/D3 player), the riveters two, the whitecaps one, and the beauts zero. Assuming 20-22 players per team, the league needs at least 100 players - signing a total of 12 is a long way off.

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by pucko View Post
    I say this because these would be two separate things. If it's the first, I'm just not sure there's ever going to be funding, a fan base, sustainability, and especially talent depth to ever have this. If it's the latter, I also think that the current US players have forgotten that being an Olympian is still for an amateur athlete.
    This is false. It hasn't been true for a long time. De jure, things changed thirty years ago; de facto, they'd been that way for a long time before then.

    There are no luge leagues . . .
    https://www.fil-luge.org/en/home

    . . . there are no skiing leagues . . .
    https://www.fis-ski.com/en

    . . . - those Olympic athletes find ways to train, have other jobs to pay the bills, and make it work. The ones that are the faces of their respective sports are the ones who profit the most and can live off endorsement deals, speaking gigs, etc.
    Along with prize money for events, this is the way that pretty much all Olympic athletes make a living. There are a few exceptions; top level curling seems to operate in the ways that you describe, but not many. To consider these endorsements as somehow separate from their athletic career, as a different job altogether, is pokechecker level idiocy.

    Remember how PO'd everyone was when the NHL started to send their players to the Olympics? The argument was that these guys have jobs in their sport and it takes away from the 'amateurism' of it all.
    The only people who were PO'ed about it, admittedly a fairly large group, were the ones who had no understanding of either the shameful history of rules enforcing amateurism or all of the ways in which amateurism had long been a dead letter at the Olympics.

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Still Eeyore View Post
    Bettman hasn't just said that the NHL is waiting for just one league. He has explicitly said that the NHL doesn't believe in the NWHL, and will not go any farther in supporting it.



    And you know this how? Getting insurance that would cover hockey related injuries is one of the things that the players have stated most worries them about the state of the NWHL.



    Most of the players have been making very large financial sacrifices to play. They may have a job, though some have said that they are being supported by parents, but they are forgoing income and better job prospects in order to be able to devote the time needed to play professional hockey.



    If you think that a gym membership is anything close to sufficient to stay in hockey shape, you're delusional. Which, I guess, means that you obviously believe exactly that.
    For a guy who claims to be a wordsmith, you sure having a problem understanding words.

    I didn’t say the NHL was going to increase funding, I said they COULD increase funding and it would be a drop in the bucket compared to how much money they would lose by starting a women’s pro league.

    They don’t need to start a league to get PR, they already have that by giving their token amount which is now double thanks to the Lesbian league folding.
    Maybe your itinerant employment doesn’t give you health insurance that covers sport and competition related injuries, mine does, it covered my injury in the Birkie, it covered my injury in the Duluth Inline, and it covered my injury in the Chequamegon. It even covered my injury back when I raced motorcycles (I told them it happened while mountain biking). No, it wasn’t to the level a college or real pro team would care for their athlete, but it got me back in the game.

    If you don’t think a gym membership can keep or get you in shape for athletic competition, it’s because you haven’t been in a gym since junior high when somebody stuffed you naked into a locker with a jock around your head (which apparently you dyed and now is your hairpiece).
    Last edited by pokechecker; 06-05-2019 at 12:10 PM. Reason: no, sprinting to the toilet to get back to the Barcalounger before the commercial is over doesn't count as exercise

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    You clearly have no idea how professional athletes train if you think just going to a gym suffices. What they do doesn't resemble your hobby in the slightest.

    There are a lot of people who have jobs that don't offer health insurance at all. That will be especially true at the sort of jobs you get that also offer the flexibility to be a professional athlete. And, again, your weekend hobby has given you a completely incorrect assessment of how things work. The response of the insurance company is going to be different from you falling off your mountain bike on a Saturday afternoon as opposed to suffering a serious injury while engaged in a paid job. Any employer needs to be able to provide the insurance to cover on-the-job injuries.

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Still Eeyore View Post
    You clearly have no idea how professional athletes train if you think just going to a gym suffices. What they do doesn't resemble your hobby in the slightest.

    There are a lot of people who have jobs that don't offer health insurance at all. That will be especially true at the sort of jobs you get that also offer the flexibility to be a professional athlete. And, again, your weekend hobby has given you a completely incorrect assessment of how things work. The response of the insurance company is going to be different from you falling off your mountain bike on a Saturday afternoon as opposed to suffering a serious injury while engaged in a paid job. Any employer needs to be able to provide the insurance to cover on-the-job injuries.
    This is what I'm imagining he's doing when you respond to him...

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    Re: NWHL Announcement Event On Tuesday In Saint Paul

    I see we both agree that athletes that only make pocket change should be considered hobbyists and not professionals. I know some of the people I had competed against considered themselves professionals, and a few of them were, like Chad Hedrick who learned to skate completely on his own. He didn’t play hockey, nor was a mama’s boy figure skater, so he had no idea what a proper skating stride was, his father owned a roller rink which is how he got into skating and eventually developed his own unique stride that caused people to go W T F?? when they saw it until they realized he was going faster than everyone else. He transformed inline skating from a hockey or speed skating stride to the one he developed (ironically a Texan who never skated on ice teaching Canadians, Dutch, etc. how to skate) and eventually switched to the ice where he also won numerous world championships and Olympic medals. The USOC didn’t come to him and say “come train in Salt Lake, we’ll make you a world champion” he got there on his own and it wasn’t until he was a champion that he started training with other world class athletes. That’s fairly typical, you don’t get world class treatment until you are.

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