Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

"No Religion" overtakes "Evangelical" as a plurality of the US population.

Stats like these are often misinterpreted to mean that faith is weakening. Its not. There's a massive changeover going on in faith atm. Its a shift from denominational to non denominational, to theological sermons and to Gospel content. It been revolutionizing faith for sometime. Most are clueless and this Burge guy (the source) appears to qualify.

That change is proven out by a slow flushing of the faith based system shown more frequently in national statistics. Studies (General Social Survey, Gallup) show that while evangelicals are essentially flat, the faithful with weak religious affiliation have dropped from 55% of the population in '90 to 45% in '15. Do they believe? I suppose. But millions that have been going through the motions on Sunday because they feel obligated just aren't showing up anymore. OTOH a third group, the faithful with no existing affiliation have more than doubled from less than 10% in '90 to over 20% in '15. These new faithful often don't show up in statistics like those referenced due to polling design...but are quite proactive/active in their faith unlike the church attender 'zombies' they replace.

Indeed, overall American faith is not weakening. Its strengthening.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Indeed, overall American faith is not weakening. Its strengthening.

There is no such thing as "American faith." There is only the faith of individual men and women.

The faith of individual believers -- of you, say -- may wax or wane. The number of believers relative to the population continues to decrease, as it has in every educated nation. That does not mean anything for your faith. Nor will faith as a general concept end or even seriously erode among people who need it, although it will change form -- the graveyards are full of obsolete gods.

When humans need something we create it -- we are the tool-making animal and god is one of our most powerful tools, like language or law. When I say god is not "real" I'm merely saying that like language and law it is created, not found in the world. But I guess my shorthand is inexact. No one would say language isn't "real" -- it's just an arbitrary sign for things which we as human beings do experience in our lives.

God isn't love. Animals appear to be able to love, so god is much more than that. God is good. Humans invented good and evil because we can't live a civilized, social existence without them. Hence the bewilderment and terror of believers when faced by atheists. "How can they live without good," they think. "They must be headstrong, or foolish, or deluded. But above all, in darkness." Indeed that is the experience of humans banished from the sight of god in scripture. The theist does not understand that the atheist locates good in other places than god. You've got your signifier, we've got ours; we are all talking about the same signified. The signifier itself is fungible. Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

Without humans there are no gods. Gods, like other magical thinking, represent transcendence of human experience. This makes them an extraordinary invention and one of the signposts on our way from animals to whatever we are becoming. Yet they come from human experience -- humanity precedes divinity.

[mookie1995]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

How can kep say without a doubt that when a dog is chasing his tail, or licking his balls, he isn’t thinking about god?

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

God isn't love. Animals appear to be able to love, so god is much more than that. God is good. Humans invented good and evil because we can't live a civilized, social existence without them. Hence the bewilderment and terror of believers when faced by atheists. "How can they live without good," they think. "They must be headstrong, or foolish, or deluded. But above all, in darkness." Indeed that is the experience of humans banished from the sight of god in scripture. The theist does not understand that the atheist locates good in other places than god. You've got your signifier, we've got ours; we are all talking about the same signified. The signifier itself is fungible. Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

Most theists know atheists get their good from places other than God. Many of us theists just think that there is a potential of greater 'good' however small it may be for people who spend time to understand and follow a moral platform.

And while your interpretation of God has improved, I still don't put too much stock in atheists' definition when they carefully define Her and then decide that they don't believe in the God they just created.

When humans need something we create it -- we are the tool-making animal and god is one of our most powerful tools, like language or law. When I say god is not "real" I'm merely saying that like language and law it is created, not found in the world. But I guess my shorthand is inexact. No one would say language isn't "real" -- it's just an arbitrary sign for things which we as human beings do experience in our lives.

I talk about Christianity because it can help individuals - as a tool. Many are in third world countries trying to save lives using faith as a tool to make that happen - regardless of the material that tool is made out of.

Serious question: is whether people have a God or not more important...than the quality of their lives?

[LynahFan]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Most are clueless and this Berge guy (the source) appears to qualify.

It's "Burge." Some of you may know why that's a funny typo.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Serious question: is whether people have a God or not more important...than the quality of their lives?

Of course not. Good question for the Thumpers, though.

The better question is which is more important: people misidentifying a fiction as a fact or the quality of their lives. Socrates (Mister "The unexamined life is not worth living") would say the former, but (1) Socrates could be a jerk and (2) how'd that work out for him?

I am with, presumably, you. I believe in whatever gets you through the night.

I am glad to see you have fully backtracked from all of your original callow pronouncements about atheists' deficiencies. Even though that is transparently to save face the whole point of this argument has been whatever path brings you to the river, so welcome home brother; drink deep. Tonight John the Baptist and Nietzsche share a bottle and both get turned down by the cute girls at the end of the bar.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

I am glad to see you have fully backtracked from all of your original callow pronouncements about atheists' deficiencies. Even though that is transparently to save face the whole point of this argument has been whatever path brings you to the river, so welcome home brother; drink deep. Tonight John the Baptist and Nietzsche share a bottle and both get turned down by the cute girls at the end of the bar.

Its fine that you think that, but my views on atheism have been airtight for as long as I've been posting here. That is...as with Christians, atheists can be both helpful and unhelpful. But the Christian core and that of other faiths offer platforms designed for the purpose of improving the goodness in people - whereas atheism offers nothing in this area. No change.

I am with, presumably, you. I believe in whatever gets you through the night.

Fantastic. Then I look forward to sharing more posts per the improvement of good in people in whatever way is on topic. As you say, faith is a construct for the creation of good.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Someone never studied humanist philosophy, that's for sure.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Someone never studied humanist philosophy, that's for sure.

The ignorant are ignorant of what they are ignorant of.

[joecct]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Interesting concept. Are you truly dead if you're brain dead?

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/po...-actually-dead

For the record, I am an organ donor.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Are you truly dead if you're brain dead?

Yes.

Next?

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Someone never studied humanist philosophy, that's for sure.

An atheist may use a humanist platform, but that doesn't come from atheism.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

An atheist may use a humanist platform, but that doesn't come from atheism.

What? This doesn't even make sense as theistic gibberish. Seriously, you need to read some books. Please, please read some books. Please learn something about the things you make these confident comments on. You are making yourself look like an absolute fool.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

What? This doesn't even make sense as theistic gibberish. Seriously, you need to read some books. Please, please read some books. Please learn something about the things you make these confident comments on. You are making yourself look like an absolute fool.

Don't think so. All stripes of people are humanists including Christians. Its not a particular author's pov...but here's the BBC take: While atheism is merely the absence of belief, humanism is a positive attitude to the world, centred on human experience, thought, and hopes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/relig...humanism.shtml

What is Christian humanism? The term Christian humanism has been used to refer to a wide range of views, some of which are more biblical than others. In general, humanism is a system of thought that centers on human values, potential, and worth; humanism is concerned with the needs and welfare of humanity, emphasizes the intrinsic worth of the individual, and sees human beings as autonomous, rational, and moral agents. https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-humanism.html

Dunno...both you and I appear to have humanism in common although I would argue the detailed moral platform of Chrisitanity takes the broad concept much further.

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

What? This doesn't even make sense as theistic gibberish. Seriously, you need to read some books. Please, please read some books. Please learn something about the things you make these confident comments on. You are making yourself look like an absolute fool.

You should keep a google doc of things to cut and paste- it would save typing. Same arguments, different day. No more insight now than a few yrs ago. I don't agree with your opinion about the existence of God but whhhoooo nelly am I confused about the attempted logic that everything is based on Christianity as a platform. Cripes. My kid knew about ancient history and diff religions (all before Christ) when he was younger than 10. Pretty sure God isn't offended that humans can recycle the good ideas over and over.