Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

I think the reason Christianity is talked about more here is that’s the predominant religion of this country. I have a lot of issues with how a lot of this earth treats people in the name of religion.
I’m currently designing a research trial for northern Nigeria where it’s over 95% Muslim and women are treated like cattle. My study is trying to get the women to use birth control for birth spacing since so many women suffer from not spacing pregnancies and the maternal mortality rate is one of the worst in the world . The woman have over 7 kids each starting around 16 and can’t get divorced without severe consequences, etc because the men control their lives . it’s jsut terrible.
One could argue some of this is cultural norms not religion but in places like Saudi Arabia how do you separate it?
For what it’s worth 5, I appreciate that you’re an outspoken Christian who doesn’t vote in lock step with the republicans here to limit people’s rights and crap on the Poors.

I have taken care of some of those women. It is awful. And they also have issues giving birth very young.

Seems mature and reasonable for all parties, and no obstacle for remaining in this state for as long as it's comfortable. If you have kids someday you'll face questions of their upbringing but if you and your partner couldn't figure that stuff out then you'd have way bigger problems than the specific issue at hand.

Ha! mr les is a Cadillac and I am a Lutheran. lilnsl was batized a Lutheran because mr les does not practice his religion. All sorts of guff from his bro who didn't go to Mass but well Lutherans are heretics. lilnsl asked me why mr les didn't go to church when he was about 3. I said he needed to ask dad. mr les started goint to church because it was easier than answering. He won't take communion tho.

I just found out (literally, this weekend) that many Protestants also do Communion. I'd always thought it was one of the sacraments that Luther called bullsh-t on, but apparently not. Not just those Catholic-wanna-be Episcopalians, either, but even some rock-ribbed Lutherans.

My Presbyterian pastor friend (who told me all this) has even administered it during services. Who knew?

I thought all Protestant churches had communion until I was older.

IIRC, United Methodists also do communion on special occasions. Remember it from Christmas Eve service at my grandparents' church. Just bread and grape juice (no booze).

The one I go to in the summer does it once a month.

Every Catholic Church I've ever been in has welcomed others, you're just not supposed to take communion.

We argue about this all the time. If I go I take communion. It isn't the church's bread but God's. In the service He invites us to commune and rejecting that offer because some human thinks I am not good enough isn't in me.

This. I've gone to church services with religious boyfriends in my past. Both Lutheran and Catholic where I was told I could not take communion, but they wanted me to go to church with them.

Oddly I never went to church with the super religious boy I dated in 8th/9th grade that is now a pastor. He did take me to a 4-H fair and teach me to show goats, but I don't think he wanted to ever discuss religion with me. His parents were the our kids can not watch tv, nor listen to secular music type.

Our church they invite everyone as part of the Service

So, any Jonathan Edwards, Sinners-in-the-Hands-of-an-Angry-God congregations hiding away in the New England woods?

I had a friend who switched churches after the kids were told their Dad was going to Hell because he didn't go to church (Baptist)

[MissThundercat]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

We argue about this all the time. If I go I take communion. It isn't the church's bread but God's. In the service He invites us to commune and rejecting that offer because some human thinks I am not good enough isn't in me.

Our church they invite everyone as part of the Service

When I first took Communion at Grace, as I was walking back to my seat, I heard something say "be wary of those who try to keep you from this Table."

I also know that day, my pastor wanted to hug me right there at the altar.

[LynahFan]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

My childhood Methodist church had communion the first Sunday of every month, and "all who truly repented of their sins against God" (I still remember that exact phrase) were invited to partake. IIRC, the only 2 sacraments recognized by Methodism were baptism (infant or otherwise) and communion.

[LynahFan]

if someone here criticized the entire LBGTQ community, would it be no big deal? That's 100% wrong...but isn't that really similar to people criticizing all Christians? Its bigotry either way.

Not even close, you poor, poor persecuted Christian. How dare you compare your discomfort while voluntarily reading an internet forum where you know full well in advance that most of the posters disagree with you to the millenia of abuse (up to and including death) which has been perpetrated on LGBTQ people, abuse which has been led first and foremost by the "Children of Christ." You are truly sick.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

I think the reason Christianity is talked about more here is that’s the predominant religion of this country. I have a lot of issues with how a lot of this earth treats people in the name of religion.
I’m currently designing a research trial for northern Nigeria where it’s over 95% Muslim and women are treated like cattle. My study is trying to get the women to use birth control for birth spacing since so many women suffer from not spacing pregnancies and the maternal mortality rate is one of the worst in the world . The woman have over 7 kids each starting around 16 and can’t get divorced without severe consequences, etc because the men control their lives . it’s jsut terrible.

So let's kick the tires on this.

1) If Islam was a unique source of direct abuse, Islamic doctrine would validate that abuse. It does not. Although it discusses Jihad, that is not oppression of its own people. In fact, the Quran explicitly mandates equal treatment of all people. There are clearly other factors at work 2) Ideologies have always been used for personal and abusive purposes. Can you imagine a situation where 'capitalism' or 'socialism' was used to abuse someone? Can you think of a time when 'nationalism' was used for terrible purposes? The concepts of capitalism and socialism are inherently not bad. 3) If Islam was a unique source of direct abuse, wouldn't you expect Muslims coming to this country to be abusive and criminal? I assume you're pretty familiar with the Somali community in MN. They are both culturally current and crime/abuse isn't just the same as the white community - its lower than the white community. While others here might not feel this way, Muslims are both a positive and IMO welcome part of the city.

As a fellow analyst/strategist, you hit the nail on the head when you said 'in the name of...'.

I would have no problems with my children growing up going to church, with the caveat the church would have to be as far from the evangelicals as can be. I think the tricky part comes in how we would approach it when they start to get old enough to ask questions and figure it out for themselves.

We’ve already had discussions about one or two things that were said there which made me feel uncomfortable. I told my girlfriend that if that’s what the church believes, I’m not going back. We had a mature, adult discussion about it. She reassured me that she and the church didn’t believe in what was said. The pastor was apparently talked to by the other pastors and congregants. So while there are going to be issues, I feel like her core, secular beliefs are very well-aligned with mine. We’re also mature enough to be able to discuss them without having to harbor contempt or choke down discomfort.

First, I personally wouldn't think twice about deciding whether God does or doesn't exist. Just go and take what you want from the experience. Second, a job can be good or bad. Marriage can be good or bad. Just don't do the place that doesn't make sense.

[mookie1995]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

If you don’t wish for your brother what you wish for yourself, you are not a true believer.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

If you don’t wish for your enemy what you wish for yourself, you are not a true believer.

Fixed your post.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

We argue about this all the time. If I go I take communion. It isn't the church's bread but God's. In the service He invites us to commune and rejecting that offer because some human thinks I am not good enough isn't in me.

That's a very interesting way of thinking about it and one I had not considered before. That is food for thought; thank you.

When I go to mass (I typically attend church with my extremely devout Mom when I am visiting) I do not take communion out of respect for the clergy and other parishioners: their roof, their rules. I'm not drawn to a consideration of God's direct invitation to me because, well, you know. However I do participate in the liturgy, partly because I enjoy it and partly because it's hardwired from church attendance the first 10 years of my life.

I've always thought of communion as by definition mediated by the church: it was Jesus and His Apostles in whom the first "church" -- a body of Christian believers on Earth self-identifying by doctrine -- is manifest. For example, if you were deathly ill you would call for a priest to administer extreme unction only if you were a Catholic -- it just wouldn't make any sense if you were an atheist. But I take your point that communion can also be thought of as direct, well, "communion" with God, and the zebras aren't essential to that. I'll really have to think about that.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Fixed your post.

I find it ironic that you're the only poster here flaming large groups of people.

Not even close, you poor, poor persecuted Christian. How dare you compare your discomfort while voluntarily reading an internet forum where you know full well in advance that most of the posters disagree with you to the millenia of abuse (up to and including death) which has been perpetrated on LGBTQ people, abuse which has been led first and foremost by the "Children of Christ." You are truly sick.

Nope. Golden Rule. There is no justification for bullying.

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

So let's kick the tires on this.

1) If Islam was a unique source of direct abuse, Islamic doctrine would validate that abuse. It does not. Although it discusses Jihad, that is not oppression of its own people. In fact, the Quran explicitly mandates equal treatment of all people. There are clearly other factors at work 2) Ideologies have always been used for personal and abusive purposes. Can you imagine a situation where 'capitalism' or 'socialism' was used to abuse someone? Can you think of a time when 'nationalism' was used for terrible purposes? The concepts of capitalism and socialism are inherently not bad. 3) If Islam was a unique source of direct abuse, wouldn't you expect Muslims coming to this country to be abusive and criminal? I assume you're pretty familiar with the Somali community in MN. They are both culturally current and crime/abuse isn't just the same as the white community - its lower than the white community. While others here might not feel this way, Muslims are both a positive and IMO welcome part of the city.

As a fellow analyst/strategist, you hit the nail on the head when you said 'in the name of...'.



First, I personally wouldn't think twice about deciding whether God does or doesn't exist. Just go and take what you want from the experience. Second, a job can be good or bad. Marriage can be good or bad. Just don't do the place that doesn't make sense.

And you misread what I was trying to say. Oh well. Keep playing the victim

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

I find it ironic that you're the only poster here flaming large groups of people.

Even if you have multiple personalities you can't count yourself more than once.

This thread has been a bunch of us on all sides of religious questions having a really interesting and collegial discussion with you sporadically stumbling in, knocking over the furniture, misunderstanding and mis-stating people's posts, and then when you're called on it slurring "you guys are-na-gonna let this ATHEIST insult all us BELIEVERS now, hiccup, urr-ya?!!!"

Go home, 5mn. You're drunk.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

And you misread what I was trying to say. Oh well. Keep playing the victim

OK...assume I was unpacking a different point - the cause of the abuse.

What was your point? If its that if its beyond terrible - yes, absolutely.

Even if you have multiple personalities you can't count yourself more than once.

This thread has been a bunch of us on all sides of religious questions having a really interesting and collegial discussion with you sporadically stumbling in, knocking over the furniture, misunderstanding and mis-stating people's posts, and then when you're called on it slurring "you guys are-na-gonna let this ATHEIST insult all us BELIEVERS now, hiccup, urr-ya?!!!"

Conversation is great. But I will continue to call out bullying and belittling of outsiders in any form. Sorry.

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

That's a very interesting way of thinking about it and one I had not considered before. That is food for thought; thank you.

When I go to mass (I typically attend church with my extremely devout Mom when I am visiting) I do not take communion out of respect for the clergy and other parishioners: their roof, their rules. I'm not drawn to a consideration of God's direct invitation to me because, well, you know. However I do participate in the liturgy, partly because I enjoy it and partly because it's hardwired from church attendance the first 10 years of my life.

I've always thought of communion as by definition mediated by the church: it was Jesus and His Apostles in whom the first "church" -- a body of Christian believers on Earth self-identifying by doctrine -- is manifest. For example, if you were deathly ill you would call for a priest to administer extreme unction only if you were a Catholic -- it just wouldn't make any sense if you were an atheist. But I take your point that communion can also be thought of as direct, well, "communion" with God, and the zebras aren't essential to that. I'll really have to think about that.

Not having been brought up Catholic, I didn't realize there had to be a middle man to 'create' communion or that there needed to be a mediator. I was brought up to believe that you should deal honestly and directly with God. Your dealings were mostly as a way to acknowledge to yourself your connection with God and to keep you honest with yourself. It wasn't to inform God what is happening. He knows what is up without any help. He didn't need a middleman or translator to figure you out.

I think all religions that have Communion do it because it was given to us by Christ. There are various beliefs about transubstantiation but all acknowledge it was given to us by Christ. IMHO it was given to all believers, not specific ones. Jesus spent whole tracts of Matthew (and other places) doing things with people who regular folk rejected and telling people that rejection wasn't OK. The apostles argued about the Gentiles,not born as Jews (and not circumcised), belonging. What needed to happen for them to be included or if they should be included. What you would need to do to belong, did they need to be circumcised before they could belong? They decided to include the Gentiles. No circumcision required. How should we be different?

Much to the chagrin of some of my relatives, I believe no human who is is doing this in the name of Christ should be doing the thing Jesus preached against- excluding. What exactly do people think happens when someone who doesn't believe, or doesn't believe as they do, communes? I have heard God will be offended, that is is a sacrilege. I happen to believe God is not small minded. He has way bigger things to be offended by than if someone participates respectfully in Communion but hasn't earned some badge. I am unclear what the basis for exclusion is. I think it would be much more offensive to God to reject the invitation extended to me. Kind of like renouncing what I believe Communion to be and represent.

I find it ironic that you're the only poster here flaming large groups of people.



Nope. Golden Rule. There is no justification for bullying.

Hmmmm. This post made me think about the Star Trek Mirror Universe episodes where Good is bad and Bad is good. https://i0.wp.com/www.tor.com/wp-con...vertical&ssl=1

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

What exactly do people think happens when someone who doesn't believe, or doesn't believe as they do, communes? I have heard God will be offended, that is is a sacrilege.

Yikes. That would be like something out of Genesis, Exodus, or worse -- the hardcore "Olde Tyme Religion" where God wipes out the whole town because somebody used the wrong fork.

That isn't consistent with any kind of Christianity I know of.

[aparch]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

I'm not fully up to speed on the scandal in the Chicagoland mega-church Harvest Bible Chapel, and not sure if it's been mentioned here, but short story is:
The lead pastor James MacDonald has instilled a mob-esque culture within the church and is accused of intimidation, fear, and suspicious financial activities. The church claimed this is all just one reporter's obsession in smearing Pastor James. And yet when faced with the discovery portion of trial after suing the reporter, the church backed off the suit so it wouldn't have to disclose their problems.

Which leads me to this article, which I *never* would have suspected the author writing. Especially from the one time #3 "Radio Shock Jock" in the nation.

https://www.dailyherald.com/news/201...s-pastor-james

In a long, rambling text I received from Pastor James the next day, I felt I was basically blamed for all the bad that has happened to him -- a pattern I've seen over and over. It's never his fault. He is always without blame. And I'm an easy villain to cast in the Kabuki Theater production that is his life. But I gave advice -- and my lawyer's number -- based on what I consider now to be mostly lies.

He was hurt and I was crestfallen.

But Pastor James often uses tears to manipulate. I don't buy it anymore.

Nobody buys it anymore.

I believe Jesus Christ was the son of God in human form. Crucified. Buried. He rose again and will still yet return. I wanted only Jesus, but I got the bonus plan of wicked church politics and drama.