Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Yep, I was corrected. You're almost there. The Gospels are symbolic, too, and the chief symbol is the idea of god itself. Once you get there you'll have understood Jesus. Who, BTW, is all right by me. If there was an afterlife (spoiler: there isn't) I would definitely buy him a drink and keep my mind open.

Nope. I am there. The difference between you and I is two fold - one in you place importance on the means vs. me on the ends...the other based in misconception.

So me? I believe in the outcome of 'doing good for your fellow man' first and foremost. And faith helps me do that better. You? You're caught up in the means of 'faith or no faith' as more important than its outcome of 'doing good for your fellow man' or 'getting help'. So you frequently criticize others who choose to use the tool of the Bible and its followers whose stated purpose is simply helping others.

Second, you believe somehow that Christianity creates right wingers...at least that's the only explanation for your rhetoric. It doesn't. Its a psychological fact that political persuasion is driven by completely different personality types. Christianity does not create different personality types. In the end, the content of Jesus is compassion. Period.

[LynahFan]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Well, then you seem to somehow believe that Christianity can't cause right wingers to become compassionate since it's hardwired into their personality type. So what's the fing point? If that's the case, then Chrisianity is no better or worse than any other human institution like the Kiwanis club or Doctors Without Borders or the Sports Car Club of America. I guarantee all of those have elements of the Golden Rule and compassion baked into their bylaws, same as Christianity.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Well, then you seem to somehow believe that Christianity can't cause right wingers to become compassionate since it's hardwired into their personality type.

Based on behaviors of right wingers. That should be pretty obvious.

So what's the fing point? If that's the case, then Chrisianity is no better or worse than any other human institution like the Kiwanis club or Doctors Without Borders or the Sports Car Club of America. I guarantee all of those have elements of the Golden Rule and compassion baked into their bylaws, same as Christianity.

Threefold.

1) Have you ever heard of affirmation? Another psychological fact. You spend time with something. You are far more likely to become that thing. If someone is either developing or open to change, then being immersed in compassion will have a major impact. Its unlikely to overcome your hard wired personality, but it can't hurt and even many negative right wingers donate major money to help third world countries. Without Christianity, its more likely their the same jerks but not donate.

2) If you spend time exploring morality, you see the many sides of it. Then you can realize it in different areas of your life. Its the same reason why athletes train. To get better.

3) In society, there are few conduits to get help and self help. Church is the main one of those. Much, if not most, of it is about the people.

Doctors without Borders is great and 100% welcome. But it takes a special person to participate...and it takes a fairly unique situation to immerse yourself that way. Church opens that compassion learning and immersion for the 'rest of us'.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Nope. I am there. The difference between you and I is two fold - one in you place importance on the means vs. me on the ends...the other based in misconception.

So me? I believe in the outcome of 'doing good for your fellow man' first and foremost. And faith helps me do that better. You? You're caught up in the means of 'faith or no faith' as more important than its outcome of 'doing good for your fellow man' or 'getting help'. So you frequently criticize others who choose to use the tool of the Bible and its followers whose stated purpose is simply helping others.

Second, you believe somehow that Christianity creates right wingers...at least that's the only explanation for your rhetoric. It doesn't. Its a psychological fact that political persuasion is driven by completely different personality types. Christianity does not create different personality types. In the end, the content of Jesus is compassion. Period.

All of this is wrong, unsurprisingly. We do agree on one thing, though -- exploring morality is how we get better. It is a muscle to be exercised, and this is one of many reasons why dogmatic faith amputates the soul. It gives a pat answer to questions which are by definition open-ended and for which the exploration is the explanation. "God says do x and you're good, so I do x. Now I'm satisfied that I'm good so I can justify all the horrific stuff I do in the rest of my life." The pattern that accompanies dogmatic faith like clockwork throughout human history. Contrast this with, for example, existentialism in which you recognize right off the bat there is nothing except your choices and decisions and their effects. You harm people, that's on you. No Man in the Sky to allow you to rationalize it. You can still be a bad person, but now there's no cover because you have confronted the realities of morality.

I understand your antipathy -- your faith may not be up to the challenge of an honest debate on the merits so you evade and misrepresent. That is a normal reaction from a closed-minded dogmatist. But I wish you would at least acknowledge you haven't the slightest clue what people outside your epistemologically closed bubble, a bubble incidentally which from all your No True Christian exceptions is apparently solely you, think and do. That would at least be honest. But instead we just get your projections followed by some hollow rhetoric like "that's the only explanation for your rhetoric." No, it's your only explanation because you refuse to engage in a real conversation. Instead there is only your ONE RIGHT ANSWER to be protected at all costs, and then a dark, scary world of ideas that challenge some of your beliefs while refuting many of your ostensible reasons for them. Your only reaction is to tightly shut your eyes and then, from the patterns that form on your eyelids, declare what others "must" think. Solipsism in plain sight.

I hope you do good things. If you do, that's because you are good. Your faith is merely a cover story to rationalize whatever it is you do, and would fit just as well if you did bad things. You'd have your reasons. You can always find them in the Book of Magic. Actually I guess in a way if you do good that makes you somewhat a better person than I, because I at least have a structure outside of myself to evaluate good and bad against. You, in having only yourself, have no such lanes, so if you drive straight that's very, very good on you.

And if you drive straight... who cares why you do it? The results are what matter, for all of us. We are our behavior and our behavior is what happens in the world due to us. Meaning is solely us. The only "good" is between our ears and then communicated to our hands. So if you do good you birthed that good, exactly as with me.

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

All of this is wrong, unsurprisingly. We do agree on one thing, though -- exploring morality is how we get better. It is a muscle to be exercised, and this is one of many reasons why dogmatic faith amputates the soul. It gives a pat answer to questions which are by definition open-ended and for which the exploration is the explanation. "God says do x and you're good, so I do x. Now I'm satisfied that I'm good so I can justify all the horrific stuff I do in the rest of my life." The pattern that accompanies dogmatic faith like clockwork throughout human history. Contrast this with, for example, existentialism in which you recognize right off the bat there is nothing except your choices and decisions and their effects. You harm people, that's on you. No Man in the Sky to allow you to rationalize it. You can still be a bad person, but now there's no cover because you have confronted the realities of morality.

I understand your antipathy -- your faith is clearly not up to the challenge of an honest debate on the merits so you evade and misrepresent. That is a normal reaction from a closed-minded dogmatist. But I wish you would at least acknowledge you haven't the slightest clue what people outside your epistemologically closed bubble, a bubble incidentally which from all your No True Christian exceptions is apparently solely you, think and do. That would at least be honest. But instead we just get your projections followed by some hollow rhetoric like "that's the only explanation for your rhetoric." No, it's your only explanation because you refuse to engage in a real conversation. Instead there is only your ONE RIGHT ANSWER to be protected at all costs, and then a dark, scary world of ideas that challenge some of your beliefs while refuting many of your ostensible reasons for them. Your only reaction is to tightly shut your eyes and then, from the patterns that form on your eyelids, declare what others "must" think. Solipsism in plain sight.

I hope you do good things. If you do, that's because you are good. Your faith is merely a cover story to rationalize whatever it is you do, and would fit just as well if you did bad things. You'd have your reasons. You can always find them in the Book of Magic. Actually I guess in a way if you do good that makes you somewhat a better person than I, because I at least have a structure outside of myself to evaluate good and bad against. You, in having only yourself, have no such lanes, so if you drive straight that's very, very good on you.

And if you drive straight... who cares why you do it? The results are what matter, for all of us. We are our behavior and our behavior is what happens in the world due to us. Meaning is solely us. The only "good" is between our ears and then communicated to our hands. So if you do good you birthed that good, exactly as with me.

This is a great post. To be honest I was taken aback at the vitriol accusing me of supporting heretics simply because I am willing to have a dialogue with people who do not blindly believe. I am not a Bible thumping prosthelytizer. Accusing folk, judging them or telling them they are clueless is a sure fire way to turn people off. Pretty sure that isn't something God would think is a good idea.

Faith that is not constantly being considered, questioned, thought about, and challenged is not really Faith IMHO. I always wonder at those who are mightily offended by people who question. The God I know can handle a little questioning, wondering or even disbelief. He has no reason to be insecure and when people are so reactionary about stuff like this it is more a reflection of their weakness not God's. If I didn't believe that I would have to believe God was weak, small minded and most of what Jesus said, he didn't mean.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

This is a great post. To be honest I was taken aback at the vitriol accusing me of supporting heretics simply because I am willing to have a dialogue with people who do not blindly believe.

I actually amended the post to say his faith may not be up to the challenge. It is not for me to say whether his faith has functional strength for him. My doing so in the initial phrasing was me acting as he does -- making an unwarranted projection.

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

I actually amended the post to say his faith may not be up to the challenge. It is not for me to say whether his faith has functional strength for him. My doing so in the initial phrasing was me acting as he does -- making an unwarranted projection.

Could also say 'gives the appearance of'. Either way IMHO if you have strong Faith it isn't threatened by being asked to explain what you believe. Fully ascribe to the if you give a Bible verse to 10 people you will have ten interpretations. I like hearing what other people say. Had a very intense 'discussion' with someone who has some very [not sure of the word- I would say warped but maybe narrow definition is more PC] ideas of how to interpret the Bible. It was fascinating. THought he was out in left field somewhere but it still made me think about what I believed and how I would explain it.

[burd]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Could also say 'gives the appearance of'. Either way IMHO if you have strong Faith it isn't threatened by being asked to explain what you believe. Fully ascribe to the if you give a Bible verse to 10 people you will have ten interpretations. I like hearing what other people say. Had a very intense 'discussion' with someone who has some very [not sure of the word- I would say warped but maybe narrow definition is more PC] ideas of how to interpret the Bible. It was fascinating. THought he was out in left field somewhere but it still made me think about what I believed and how I would explain it.

Kepler pushes us all to think more carefully, and that's part of the reason why it's good to have him back. We can overlook his gross misunderstanding of us folks out here in flyover country.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

All of this is wrong, unsurprisingly...

Did you really just type five hundred words and avoid the simple point that you care more about how people 'get to good' (criticizing faith) than you care about actually having 'good' done? That you care more about how people 'get help' (criticizing faith) then you care about people 'getting help'?

Nope. I am there. The difference between you and I is two fold - one in you place importance on the means vs. me on the ends...the other based in misconception.

So me? I believe in the outcome of 'doing good for your fellow man' first and foremost. And faith helps me do that better. You? You're caught up in the means of 'faith or no faith' as more important than its outcome of 'doing good for your fellow man' or 'getting help'. So you frequently criticize others who choose to use the tool of the Bible and its followers whose stated purpose is simply helping others.

Second, you believe somehow that Christianity creates right wingers...at least that's the only explanation for your rhetoric. It doesn't. Its a psychological fact that political persuasion is driven by completely different personality types. Christianity does not create different personality types. In the end, the content of Jesus is compassion. Period.

[bostonewe]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Kepler pushes us all to think more carefully, and that's part of the reason why it's good to have him back. We can overlook his gross misunderstanding of us folks out here in flyover country.

Agreed - and Massachusetts.

[unofan]

Did you really just type five hundred words and avoid the simple point that you care more about how people 'get to good' (criticizing faith) than you care about actually having 'good' done? That you care more about how people 'get help' (criticizing faith) then you care about people 'getting help'?

If that's what you took from his post, no one here can help you.

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

If that's what you took from his post, no one here can help you.

I thought the same thing. It was like an audiovisual aide for the real point of the post.

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Saw this and thought it was apropos
'Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there's absolutely no point."
(Amberveal)

Now if only I could remember that.... I really like to believe people are capable of dialogue but the dopamine released with intense moral outrage is a powerful drug.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

We can overlook his gross misunderstanding of us folks out here in flyover country.

Agreed - and Massachusetts.

I spent this past weekend in Ithaca (4-point weekend!) with a friend from Boston, then drove home to Virginia with a friend from Kansas and her enormous Great Pyrenees (pro tip: if you like dogs, get one of those; they are amazing), the latter a balls-to-the-wall Christian minister. I love them both.

One of the reasons I tease 5mn is he (she?, nah gotta be a he) is so wildly irrelevant to my real life relationships with Christians that I can't help but poke fun. The laughably contorted snarlings he emits, ostensibly in the name of "faith," contrast so pungently with the real, loving faith of my gentle Christian friends -- friends who it should be pointed out are doing something to make a difference in their communities and not just jabbering their Internet Testaments.

I sincerely wish 5mn luck in the universal project of human existence: coming to terms with our terrifying responsibility as the sole moral agent in an amoral universe. We are the lights and the truths and the ways. Everything else is just scenery.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

If that's what you took from his post, no one here can help you.

OK...let's a take a look at his primary premise:

We do agree on one thing, though -- exploring morality is how we get better. It is a muscle to be exercised, and this is one of many reasons why dogmatic faith amputates the soul....Instead there is only your ONE RIGHT ANSWER to be protected at all costs, and then a dark, scary world of ideas that challenge some of your beliefs while refuting many of your ostensible reasons for them

Actually...Kepler, rather than I, is the dogmatic ideologue.

Me: God may or may not exist.
Kepler: God absolutely does not exist.

dog·mat·ic - lays down principles as incontrovertibly true

That was easy, Now...what of him placing others' welfare as secondary to his own personal anti faith agenda?