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Thread: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

  1. #461
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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    For a skeptic who thinks he has a monopoly on science...why are facts so hard? From wiki:

    Intellectualism: Monasteries were important contributors to the surrounding community. They were centers of intellectual progression and education. They welcomed aspiring priests to come study and learn, allowing them even to challenge doctrine in dialogue with superiors.

    Hospitals: Medieval hospitals in Europe followed a similar pattern to the Byzantine. They were religious communities, with care provided by monks and nuns.

    Literacy: During the Early Middle Ages, the monasteries of the Roman Catholic Church were the centers of education and literacy, preserving the Church's selection from Latin learning and maintaining the art of writing.

    The University: The university is generally regarded as a formal institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting.[5][6] Prior to the establishment of universities, European higher education took place for hundreds of years in Christian cathedral schools or monastic schools (scholae monasticae), in which monks and nuns taught classes. Evidence of these immediate forerunners of the later university at many places dates back to the 6th century AD.[

    Preserving Wisdom: Greek Christian scribes played a crucial role in the preservation of Aristotle by copying all the extant Greek language manuscripts of the corpus. The first Greek Christians to comment extensively on Aristotle were Philoponus, Elias, and David in the sixth century, and Stephen of Alexandria in the early seventh century.
    LOL. Kepler gives you Martin Luther, and you attempt to refute with Wiki? Fail.

    The Church had a monopoly on (their particular brand of) education and science in the dark ages because they used their political and military power (aka divinely anointed kings) to stamp out any competition. If Reason had been in charge during that period, we could have landed on the moon in the 1400s. Easily. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Christianity set human progress back at least 500 years.
    If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    The Church had a monopoly on (their particular brand of) education and science in the dark ages because they used their political and military power (aka divinely anointed kings) to stamp out any competition. If Reason had been in charge during that period, we could have landed on the moon in the 1400s. Easily. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Christianity set human progress back at least 500 years.
    OK. So I've already showed how it specifically helped in healthcare, education, literacy, knowledge preservation. Now here's your big chance. Where's the evidence that Christianity set human progress back 500 years?
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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    This is quality.

    Iím glad youíre back.
    Me too.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    I have lots of skeptic friends who are capable of having meaningful conversations on faith. The skeptics here just can't. If it gets real, they just walk away.
    I translate this as if they don't agree with what I say and stop engaging. Faith is called Faith for a reason. There is no way to prove fact. You just believe. I am a Believer and I struggle mightily with what you present is logic. Jesus spent half the Bible arguing against absolutism, exclusion and for inclusion and loving everyone, not just the guy who believes like you.

    This bit about Christianity is the font of all good acts is silly. Like any group, Christians have done some very good things and some horrific things. LIkewise to most other large religions. I imagine with very little research you could find a nice list of naughty and nice things every religion has done. Trying to 'prove' good acts must be based in Christianity or that the vast majority of them are, or that they didn't do bad things weakens your argument. Saying the world was dependent on Christianity to know how to do these things? Anyone, even with rudimentary knowledge of history knows this is a falsehood. There are other cultures that promote all these values all over the world.

  4. #464
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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    OK. So I've already showed how it specifically helped in healthcare, education, literacy, knowledge preservation. Now here's your big chance. Where's the evidence that Christianity set human progress back 500 years?
    How much did the Church support innovation, science, knowledge if it was not in the interest of the church, or adhering to rules? As a woman, I would add the active suppression of 50% of the population for large periods of time by many sects would by default say they weren't allowing a lot of able people to do things that would have helped progress.

    Recent examples- stem cell research comes to mind
    Last edited by leswp1; 01-10-2019 at 03:10 PM.

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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    This is long but fascinating read - deep.
    https://www.pewforum.org/2009/05/04/r...ct-or-harmony/

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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Many people need the threat of punishment to refrain from being monsters. As long as there are people like that then gods serve a purpose. It is one of the reasons we invented them.

    Religion is like a romance novel. It can be entertaining and even inspiring and you're fine amusing yourself with it. Just don't take it literally, don't obsess over it, and for Hypatia's sake don't use it as an excuse to project your hatefulness and revenge fantasies.

    To a person who can only imagine transcendent kindness and love as God the knowledge that God is fictional is deeply unsettling, because they make the category error that then kindness and love must be fraudulent. But the one has nothing to do with the other. Kindness and love are what are real. If you preach that then I am with you, whether you do it directly in their names or use a cipher like a god or aliens or magic crystals. If you're doing good then keep doing it.
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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by leswp1 View Post
    As a woman, I would add the active suppression of 50% of the population for large periods of time by many sects would by default say they weren't allowing a lot of able people to do things that would have helped progress.
    I fully support this statement.
    In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WisconsinWildcard View Post
    I fully support this statement.
    As a woman, same. A lot of men conveniently skip over this

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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by leswp1 View Post
    I imagine with very little research you could find a nice list of naughty and nice things every religion has done. Trying to 'prove' good acts must be based in Christianity or that the vast majority of them are, or that they didn't do bad things weakens your argument. Saying the world was dependent on Christianity to know how to do these things? Anyone, even with rudimentary knowledge of history knows this is a falsehood. There are other cultures that promote all these values all over the world.
    I will say this yet again. The source of Christianity is Jesus as he is God and as God, He changed the Law. So Christianity = the Gospels. What bad acts have come from Jesus' Word? If you say the inquisition, I say go fish. If you say the Crusades, I say go fish. These were the acts of mere men who used the faith for their own intent. The Gospels are about love. If you act, 180 degrees from that...you're not following Jesus as defined by every known definition (that Christianity is defined as following Jesus) and are therefore, these acts are not based in Christianity.
    Go Gophers!

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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    The positives?

    The role of Christianity in civilization has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society. Throughout its long history, the Church has been a major source of social services like schooling and medical care; inspiration for art, culture and philosophy; and influential player in politics and religion. In various ways it has sought to affect Western attitudes to vice and virtue in diverse fields. Festivals like Easter and Christmas are marked as public holidays; the Gregorian Calendar has been adopted internationally as the civil calendar; and the calendar itself is measured from the date of Jesus's birth.

    The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. Church scholars preserved literacy in Western Europe following the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.[1] During the Middle Ages, the Church rose to replace the Roman Empire as the unifying force in Europe. The cathedrals of that age remain among the most iconic feats of architecture produced by Western civilization. Many of Europe's universities were also founded by the church at that time. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.[2] The university is generally regarded[3][4] as an institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting, born from Cathedral schools.[5] The Reformation brought an end to religious unity in the West, but the Renaissance masterpieces produced by Catholic artists like Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and Raphael at that time remain among the most celebrated works of art ever produced. Similarly, Christian sacred music by composers like Pachelbel, Vivaldi, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Liszt, and Verdi is among the most admired classical music in the Western canon.

    The Bible and Christian theology have also strongly influenced Western philosophers and political activists. The teachings of Jesus, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan, are among the important sources for modern notions of Human Rights and the welfare measures commonly provided by governments in the West. Long held Christian teachings on sexuality and marriage and family life have also been both influential and (in recent times) controversial. Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice, slavery,[6] infanticide and polygamy.[7] Christianity in general affected the status of women by condemning marital infidelity, divorce, incest, polygamy, birth control, infanticide (female infants were more likely to be killed), and abortion.[8] While official Church teaching[9] considers women and men to be complementary (equal and different), some modern "advocates of ordination of women and other feminists" argue that teachings attributed to St. Paul and those of the Fathers of the Church and Scholastic theologians advanced the notion of a divinely ordained female inferiority.[10] Nevertheless, women have played prominent roles in Western history through and as part of the church, particularly in education and healthcare, but also as influential theologians and mystics.

    Christians have made a myriad contributions to human progress in a broad and diverse range of fields, both historically and in modern times, including the science and technology,[11][12][13][14][15] medicine,[16] fine arts and architecture,[17][18][19] politics, literatures,[19] Music,[19] philanthropy, philosophy,[20][21][22]:15 ethics,[23] theatre and business.[24][25][18][26] According to 100 Years of Nobel Prizes a review of Nobel prizes award between 1901 and 2000 reveals that (65.4%) of Nobel Prizes Laureates, have identified Christianity in its various forms as their religious preference.[27] Eastern Christians (particularly Nestorian Christians) have also contributed to the Arab Islamic Civilization during the Ummayad and the Abbasid periods by translating works of Greek philosophers to Syriac and afterwards to Arabic.[28][29][30] They also excelled in philosophy, science, theology and medicine.[31][32]
    Go Gophers!

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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    I will say this yet again. The source of Christianity is Jesus as he is God and as God, He changed the Law. So Christianity = the Gospels. What bad acts have come from Jesus' Word? If you say the inquisition, I say go fish. If you say the Crusades, I say go fish. These were the acts of mere men who used the faith for their own intent. The Gospels are about love. If you act, 180 degrees from that...you're not following Jesus as defined by every known definition (that Christianity is defined as following Jesus) and are therefore, these acts are not based in Christianity.
    Stupid question: Why do you capitalize word? It seems to denote status, but what, exactly?

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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    I will say this yet again. The source of Christianity is Jesus as he is God and as God, He changed the Law. So Christianity = the Gospels. What bad acts have come from Jesus' Word? If you say the inquisition, I say go fish. If you say the Crusades, I say go fish. These were the acts of mere men who used the faith for their own intent. The Gospels are about love. If you act, 180 degrees from that...you're not following Jesus as defined by every known definition (that Christianity is defined as following Jesus) and are therefore, these acts are not based in Christianity.
    Hello?
    The Inquisition, the Crusades were both done/ordered by the man who was in charge of the formal organized Church. The acknowledged leaders of Christianity for a few centuries more before there were sects that split off or disagreed. However convenient you may find it, you cannot divorce the established church doing these things from Christianity. Was it what Jesus would do? Well, we don't think so but clearly they did at the time. You don't even need to look that far back in history. There are different sects doing suspect things right now who claim to be Christian. Many of the Fundies can recite the Bible from memory and do not interpret as you do or as I do. Look at this thread. We have a number of Christians that argue about interpretation as far as what Jesus would want us to do and what was meant by the Gospels.

    No 'man' is capable of knowing exactly what is right. We all can pray and ask for discernment but we will still end up with different ways of looking at things. There is no such things as pure Christianity. Man always inserts himself into the equation. And there is no such thing as getting to decide to say the person did horrible things in the name of Christ doesn't count. If he professes it was in the name of Christ, no matter how much we all protest, those who are not Christian know this as the face of Christ. This happens to Muslims all the time and how many times have we seen the entire religion villified because of extremists? And how many howl in outrage if someone says this isn't the Islamic faith?
    Last edited by leswp1; 01-11-2019 at 12:05 AM.

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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    I believe the above post will be considered # 6 flaming (because I didn't agree with your logic).

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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by leswp1 View Post
    Hello. The Inquisition, the Crusades were both done ordered by the man who was in charge of the formal organized Church. However convenient you may find it you cannot divorce the entire established church doing these things in the name of Christianity. Was it what Jesus would do? Well, we don't think so but clearly they did at the time.
    Sure you can, when you throw out all the attempts at organized Christianity as wrongheaded and false, ignore everything except the Gospels, and basically boil it down to a new age cult of personality that revolves around one man's philosophy on love.

    In 5mn's worldview, we keep the Gospels and toss out the rest of the Bible. Then we put a new hippie-dippie cover on it, and call it something like "Christianity: The Nazarene Ideal", by Jesus Christ with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
    Last edited by FadeToBlack&Gold; 01-11-2019 at 12:13 AM.
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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    Sure you can, when you throw out all the attempts at organized Christianity as wrongheaded and false, ignore everything except the Gospels, and basically boil it down to a new age cult of personality that revolves around one man's philosophy on love.

    In 5mn's worldview, we keep the Gospels and toss out the rest of the Bible. Then we put a new hippie-dippie cover on it, and call it something like "Christianity: The Nazarene Ideal", by Jesus Christ with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
    He would like it but he doesn't get to decide that no one else can pass judgement and he can't decide they have to care about his opinion. Just like all the fanatics cannot be convinced the nutbags who do nasty things and claim to be Muslim are not following the normal interpretation of Islam.

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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    In 5mn's worldview, we keep the Gospels and toss out the rest of the Bible. Then we put a new hippie-dippie cover on it, and call it something like "Christianity: The Nazarene Ideal", by Jesus Christ with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
    It's called Godspell and it's a very good ideal.

    But I don't think that's what he's arguing. If 5mn was arguing that then he and I would never disagree on anything. The problem is he isn't throwing out the rest of the Bible. He insists on a literal adherence to every word because he must, he believes it is the Word.

    His inability to compromise follows logically from his view of God as literally real and the Bible as His literal Word. I think I completely understand 5mn. He's not just talking the talk, he's also walking the walk. He isn't saying, "I'm a mathematician and though I'm with you on Geometry and Algebra when it comes to Analysis that's a bridge too far and I have to diverge from the text." He is doing something that requires bravery: he is a true dogmatist, a Javert of God, and if people get hurt along the way that's tough luck because nobody ever promised us Truth wouldn't hurt.

    5mn constantly mischaracterizes and misunderstands me, and that is unfortunate, but he's no hypocrite or difference splitter. He's the real deal.
    Last edited by Kepler; 01-11-2019 at 09:20 AM.
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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    The positives?

    ...Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice, slavery...
    Hmm, you think so?

    Slavery is listed all through the Bible, OT, NT and the Gospels. “I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith.” That's the Word of Your Lord, in response to a centurion telling him about how well his soldiers and slaves obey him. Odd, Jesus didn't admonish him for slaves, just marveled at his statement of their capitulation to his commands. Luke 7:2

    Luke 12:46-47
    The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
    Luke 17:7-9
    But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.


    Yup, the Gospels are so kind to slaves. Clearly it's a tool for abolition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    It's called Godspell and it's a very good ideal.

    But I don't think that's what he's arguing. If 5mn was arguing that then he and I would never disagree on anything. The problem is he isn't throwing out the rest of the Bible. He insists on a literal adherence to every word because he must, he believes it is the Word.

    His inability to compromise follows logically from his view of God as literally real and the Bible as His literal Word. I think I completely understand 5mn. He's not just talking the talk, he's also walking the walk. He isn't saying, "I'm a mathematician and though I'm with you on Geometry and Algebra when it comes to Analysis that's a bridge too far and I have to diverge from the text." He is doing something that requires bravery: he is a true dogmatist, a Javert of God, and if people get hurt along the way that's tough luck because nobody ever promised us Truth wouldn't hurt.

    5mn constantly mischaracterizes and misunderstands me, and that is unfortunate, but he's no hypocrite or difference splitter. He's the real deal.
    You're way off. He says he doesn't care about anything in the Bible except for the Gospels. But then pretends his version of Christianity is representative of the entire religion, never mind that 99% of Christendom would dispute most of what he says.

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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by leswp1 View Post
    Hello?
    Before the rooster crows today, you will disown me three times.

    I don't really care about your response and have decided to move on. Why? For years, you provided minimal support for Christianity or Jesus for that matter. I've seen you back those who directly compare your God to a terrorist. I've seen you back people consider your faith a fantasy or myth. I've seen you look on as someone calls your faith a death cult. You've watched as blame is placed on Christianity because individuals who have used it as a cover to do evil. To begin with, you've had no disagreement with these transgressions. And when I or anyone else questions this hostility...you have criticized this questioning or more often rushed to support whatever garbage has been dumped on your God. I have no idea whether you are a Christian or not. But you're support for Jesus has been hard to find...and you're defense of hostility towards Him has been unquestionable.
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    Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Before the rooster crows today, you will disown me three times.

    I don't really care about your response and have decided to move on. Why? For years, you provided minimal support for Christianity or Jesus for that matter. I've seen you back those who directly compare your God to a terrorist. I've seen you back people consider your faith a fantasy or myth. I've seen you look on as someone calls your faith a death cult. You've watched as blame is placed on Christianity because individuals who have used it as a cover to do evil. To begin with, you've had no disagreement with these transgressions. And when I or anyone else questions this hostility...you have criticized this questioning or more often rushed to support whatever garbage has been dumped on your God. I have no idea whether you are a Christian or not. But you're support for Jesus has been hard to find...and you're defense of hostility towards Him has been unquestionable.
    Jeebus...

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