Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

[burd]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

I have lots of skeptic friends who are capable of having meaningful conversations on faith. The skeptics here just can't. If it gets real, they just walk away.

I respectfully disagree, 5mn. There have been some very meaningful conversations here involving you and skeptics. Sometimes we lapse into stereotypes and over-generalizations, but that is to be expected.

[St. Clown]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

I would argue that tough is calling out intolerance when you see it and that being a bigot is quite cowardly.



The facts are that millions choose to turn to faith for self help.
The facts are that hundreds of millions are helped by faith via charity and volunteerism.
The facts are that skeptics here are so caught up in criticizing the means that they don't care whether people get helped or not.

People seeking and receiving help is good. There's no denying that. That's still not proof that your god exists. Millions of kids have faith in the Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy. Are they real?

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

At least, we're agreed that the outcomes of Christianity are 'good'.

People seeking and receiving help is good. There's no denying that. That's still not proof that your god exists. Millions of kids have faith in the Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy. Are they real?

The base definition of Christianity has nothing to do with existence. Christianity is defined as a religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. And that definition explains the way in which millions get help.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

I would argue that tough is calling out intolerance when you see it and that being a bigot is quite cowardly.

So would I, friend. So would I.

[St. Clown]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

At least, we're agreed that the outcomes of Christianity are 'good'.



The base definition of Christianity has nothing to do with existence. Christianity is defined as a religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. And that definition explains the way in which millions get help.

And what you just wrote completely removes your sect from perhaps >95% of Christians, who believe that Jesus Christ is God made corporeal, and the embodiment of the Holy Spirit. One might even call it a Holy Trinity.

What you've described is essentially turning Christ into non-militaristic version of Sun Tzu.

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

The outcomes of Christianity are good? I’m not sure they’re all good. Do they do some good things? Yes. They also do some terrible things and have for centuries

[St. Clown]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

The outcomes of Christianity are good? I’m not sure they’re all good. Do they do some good things? Yes. They also do some terrible things and have for centuries

Yeah, he's got his blinders on to what people say. If it's right in front of his nose (that being his own perception of his own religion), then he zeroes in on it and ignores the (to steal a phrase from a certain pariah comedian) Yeah...but.

[unofan]

The facts are that skeptics here are so caught up in criticizing the means that they don't care whether people get helped or not.

Physician, heal thyself.

You're so caught up in defending Christianity that you don't care whether people get hurt or not.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

The base definition of Christianity has nothing to do with existence. Christianity is defined as a religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth...

*sigh*

"Well, there you go again."

I guess that means we can just throw out the Ten Commandments then. And everything else in the OT. If "I am the Lord your God" doesn't count and isn't a rule, then your version of Christianity just boils down to it being a self-help philosophy based on "love thy neighbor". That's fine, but it's something everyone should be doing anyway, and we shouldn't need a religious faith to figure that out.

Literally no organized version of the Christian faith agrees with you, 5mn. You've got your own little, rebellious interpretation that many (probably even a majority) of your kind would find blasphemous.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

And what you just wrote completely removes your sect from perhaps >95% of Christians, who believe that Jesus Christ is God made corporeal, and the embodiment of the Holy Spirit. One might even call it a Holy Trinity.

What you've described is essentially turning Christ into non-militaristic version of Sun Tzu.

Christianity is defined as simply following Jesus in every major dictionary in the modern English language. By definition, 'knowing' that God exists is not part of that equation. I'll never know why skeptics need to redefine it to something its not.

The outcomes of Christianity are good? I’m not sure they’re all good. Do they do some good things? Yes. They also do some terrible things and have for centuries

Physician, heal thyself.

You're so caught up in defending Christianity that you don't care whether people get hurt or not.

Acts of love and helping the fortunate do seem to come from inspiration for love and helping the less fortunate.

Acts of hatred and injury do not naturally come from love and helping the less fortunate - its pretty much a necessity that the actor does it in spite of Christian influence.

[LynahFan]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

For a skeptic who thinks he has a monopoly on science...why are facts so hard? From wiki:

Intellectualism: Monasteries were important contributors to the surrounding community. They were centers of intellectual progression and education. They welcomed aspiring priests to come study and learn, allowing them even to challenge doctrine in dialogue with superiors.

Hospitals: Medieval hospitals in Europe followed a similar pattern to the Byzantine. They were religious communities, with care provided by monks and nuns.

Literacy: During the Early Middle Ages, the monasteries of the Roman Catholic Church were the centers of education and literacy, preserving the Church's selection from Latin learning and maintaining the art of writing.

The University: The university is generally regarded as a formal institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting.[5][6] Prior to the establishment of universities, European higher education took place for hundreds of years in Christian cathedral schools or monastic schools (scholae monasticae), in which monks and nuns taught classes. Evidence of these immediate forerunners of the later university at many places dates back to the 6th century AD.[

Preserving Wisdom: Greek Christian scribes played a crucial role in the preservation of Aristotle by copying all the extant Greek language manuscripts of the corpus. The first Greek Christians to comment extensively on Aristotle were Philoponus, Elias, and David in the sixth century, and Stephen of Alexandria in the early seventh century.

LOL. Kepler gives you Martin Luther, and you attempt to refute with Wiki? Fail.

The Church had a monopoly on (their particular brand of) education and science in the dark ages because they used their political and military power (aka divinely anointed kings) to stamp out any competition. If Reason had been in charge during that period, we could have landed on the moon in the 1400s. Easily. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Christianity set human progress back at least 500 years.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

The Church had a monopoly on (their particular brand of) education and science in the dark ages because they used their political and military power (aka divinely anointed kings) to stamp out any competition. If Reason had been in charge during that period, we could have landed on the moon in the 1400s. Easily. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Christianity set human progress back at least 500 years.

OK. So I've already showed how it specifically helped in healthcare, education, literacy, knowledge preservation. Now here's your big chance. Where's the evidence that Christianity set human progress back 500 years?

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

This is quality.

I’m glad you’re back.

Me too.

I have lots of skeptic friends who are capable of having meaningful conversations on faith. The skeptics here just can't. If it gets real, they just walk away.

I translate this as if they don't agree with what I say and stop engaging. Faith is called Faith for a reason. There is no way to prove fact. You just believe. I am a Believer and I struggle mightily with what you present is logic. Jesus spent half the Bible arguing against absolutism, exclusion and for inclusion and loving everyone, not just the guy who believes like you.

This bit about Christianity is the font of all good acts is silly. Like any group, Christians have done some very good things and some horrific things. LIkewise to most other large religions. I imagine with very little research you could find a nice list of naughty and nice things every religion has done. Trying to 'prove' good acts must be based in Christianity or that the vast majority of them are, or that they didn't do bad things weakens your argument. Saying the world was dependent on Christianity to know how to do these things? Anyone, even with rudimentary knowledge of history knows this is a falsehood. There are other cultures that promote all these values all over the world.

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

OK. So I've already showed how it specifically helped in healthcare, education, literacy, knowledge preservation. Now here's your big chance. Where's the evidence that Christianity set human progress back 500 years?

How much did the Church support innovation, science, knowledge if it was not in the interest of the church, or adhering to rules? As a woman, I would add the active suppression of 50% of the population for large periods of time by many sects would by default say they weren't allowing a lot of able people to do things that would have helped progress.

Recent examples- stem cell research comes to mind

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

This is long but fascinating read - deep.
http://www.pewforum.org/2009/05/04/r...ct-or-harmony/