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Thread: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

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    A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

    It seems to me that "immigration" is one issue in which the "typical" progressive / conservative divide does not apply.
    -- very few progressives would want to see a successful terrorist attack on US soil (or anywhere else, for that matter!)
    -- very few conservatives would want to see refugee camps along the border (some leading conservatives have even been in the forefront of immigration reform proposals).

    When it comes to a discussion of immigration policy, I sort of feel like an octopus: "on one hand, on the other hand, on the other hand, on the other hand...."

    It seems to me that there are three constellations of concern when it comes to immigration policy. these are just a few preliminary thoughts and are not intended to be a comprehensive list.

    1) public safety
    -- how do we keep terrorists from infiltrating our borders?
    -- how do we intercept criminals before they can commit more crimes?
    -- how do we cope with people who are infected with communicable diseases?

    2) employment and economics
    -- people from around the globe come to the US for college and post-graduate education, and develop technical skills that are highly in demand among potential employers. many of them want to remain here afterward, but cannot. we all suffer from the lack of their talent and expertise, which is greatly needed in today's economy.
    -- I have no idea whether claims that immigrant labor is vital to US agriculture are true or are propaganda. reliable facts are probably not available, everyone has their spin.


    3) what do we do about people who are already here?
    -- it seems unfair to let them "jump the line" ahead of people who have dutifully followed the prescribed legal pathways, yet
    -- it also seems unfair (and impractical) to deport these people as well (unless they are convicted criminals.....)


    4) our national identity
    -- "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breath free, he wretched refuse of your teeming shore, Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door."
    -- we have been a refuge for the persecuted and the downtrodden
    -- we have been a beacon of opportunity for those who want a better life for their children


    I don't have a lot of answers, but in true wiki fashion, I have no doubt that the collective intelligence, insight, experience, and creativity of the people who routinely "hang out" in the cafe might lead us to some insights that no one person could derive on his/her own.



    PS Full disclosure: in my own family, all 8 of my great-grandparents immigrated in the 1880s or 1890s, and both of my wife's parents immigrated in the 1920s. Most of the people I grew up with had similar stories.
    Last edited by FreshFish; 07-10-2014 at 12:21 PM.
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    Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

    We have a policy?????

    Whatever it is it's broken and the Bone Man won't negotiate.
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    Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

    Whatever the policy is its not going to stop masses of people from illegally crossing our southern border.

    So enforcement is the bigger issue for me.

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    Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

    I've mentioned this before, but I'll reiterate:

    For those who came here prior to 2008:

    1) If you joined the military and got honorably discharged, you're in. Walk down to city hall and take the oath. You're a citizen, no lines, no waiting.
    2) If you were brought here as a kid and got a degree in an area of need (medicine, engineering, etc etc) you get to cut in line as we need your skills. Permanent resident provided no criminal record and work towards citizenship.
    3) If you were brought here as a kid and have no college education, but you are gainfully employed, have no criminal record, and your employer will sponser you, get to the back of the line but you have a green card.
    4) If you work in agriculture, you may get a temporary seasonal visa whenever you're needed. You must go home and pay should be wired back home to give people and incentive to leave and come back
    5) If you don't fit any of these categories, you're here illegally so you have to go. My guess is that this policy particularly the AG part captures a lot of the roughly 10M or so illegals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    We have a policy?????

    Whatever it is it's broken and the Bone Man won't negotiate.
    Since when does Congress enforce laws? Better look to your hero for fault

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    Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    Since when does Congress enforce laws? Better look to your hero for fault
    The current law at the border being followed by Obama with the kids that's been in the news was passed in 2008 by the Bush Administration. It is being followed exactly as written.

    Try again.
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    Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

    Does anybody seriously speculate that our agribusiness might not depend extensively on immigrant labor? (you didn't say "illegal immigrant," but even then I would have a hard time believing that food prices wouldn't budge if you waved a magic wand and sent all the illegal immigrant farm workers back home)
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    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    Does anybody seriously speculate that our agribusiness might not depend extensively on immigrant labor? (you didn't say "illegal immigrant," but even then I would have a hard time believing that food prices wouldn't budge if you waved a magic wand and sent all the illegal immigrant farm workers back home)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    The current law at the border being followed by Obama with the kids that's been in the news was passed in 2008 by the Bush Administration. It is being followed exactly as written.

    Try again.
    clearly those kids are our only immigration issues. I seem to remember your hero telling ICE to back off in Arizona, I doubt that's the only place

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    Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    clearly those kids are our only immigration issues. I seem to remember your hero telling ICE to back off in Arizona, I doubt that's the only place
    Obama has deported more people and spent more money on border security than any other President. You want more tell Congress to get off their ***.
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    Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

    It's simple, please immigrate legally. Legal immigrants are welcomed with open arms.

    Any and all illegals need to go back where they came from, no matter how long they have been here. Of course the big issue is the Mexican border. The entire border needs to be manned by military personnel to stop illegals from getting across. We have enough military personnel to accomplish this. They could even rotate National Guard units to border duty if needed. Once the border is tightly secured and they realize they go right back the next day, they'll stop trying. They'll undoubtedly then try using the water, but the Navy could easily deal with that.

    If you've been booted as an illegal, you are more than welcome to enter the country legally.
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    Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

    Everyone who can't trace their family tree in America to 1606 has to go home.

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    Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy A View Post
    The entire border needs to be manned by military personnel to stop illegals from getting across. We have enough military personnel to accomplish this.
    No, we do not. Not even close - assuming, of course, that you do not mean to abandon all of our other military missions at the same time. The border with Mexico is 1,954 miles long. 1 guy can watch, what - 500 ft of the border? That's 21,000 troops - per shift. Figure 6 hour shifts (at best), with travel time to-and-from barracks, so that's 84,000. Allow time off for sickness, training, leaves, etc, and let's call it an even 100,000 people who would need to be actively watching the border. But that's really not enough, because who watches your section while you're detaining someone who you caught coming across? And how can one guy detain 100 people coming across in a group? Figure everyone realistically needs at least one backup, so you're at 200K. Figure 10% overhead to manage and train all those soldiers, and you're at 220K - that's 16% of our total armed forces, or 40% of the US Army.

    Not a realistic solution.
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    Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    The current law at the border being followed by Obama with the kids that's been in the news was passed in 2008 by the Bush Administration.

    Hmm.....based on this logic, wouldn't the problems at the border have started in 2009???

    Perhaps there has been another event in the interim which precipitated the mass migration of children??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy A View Post
    It's simple, please immigrate legally. Legal immigrants are welcomed with open arms.

    Any and all illegals need to go back where they came from, no matter how long they have been here. Of course the big issue is the Mexican border. The entire border needs to be manned by military personnel to stop illegals from getting across. We have enough military personnel to accomplish this. They could even rotate National Guard units to border duty if needed. Once the border is tightly secured and they realize they go right back the next day, they'll stop trying. They'll undoubtedly then try using the water, but the Navy could easily deal with that.

    If you've been booted as an illegal, you are more than welcome to enter the country legally.
    You realize all of these kids in busses were caught at the border and are being detained pending a hearing pursuant to a law passed years ago, right? That's why they're on busses, because they were caught.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    Hmm.....based on this logic, wouldn't the problems at the border have started in 2009???

    Perhaps there has been another event in the interim which precipitated the mass migration of children??
    Central America, and specifically Honduras and Guatemala, became even bigger crap holes to live in?

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    Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    We have a policy?????
    If you call posturing to look good to the electorate a policy, then, yes, we have a policy.

    I still look forward to the day I can visit the western 2/3 of Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument, which has been closed for like a decade because of unsafe conditions.
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    Good to see you're so reasonable.
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    Very well, said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    A fair assessment Bob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    No, we do not. Not even close - assuming, of course, that you do not mean to abandon all of our other military missions at the same time. The border with Mexico is 1,954 miles long. 1 guy can watch, what - 500 ft of the border? That's 21,000 troops - per shift. Figure 6 hour shifts (at best), with travel time to-and-from barracks, so that's 84,000. Allow time off for sickness, training, leaves, etc, and let's call it an even 100,000 people who would need to be actively watching the border. But that's really not enough, because who watches your section while you're detaining someone who you caught coming across? And how can one guy detain 100 people coming across in a group? Figure everyone realistically needs at least one backup, so you're at 200K. Figure 10% overhead to manage and train all those soldiers, and you're at 220K - that's 16% of our total armed forces, or 40% of the US Army.

    Not a realistic solution.
    I'd be all for it if it was instead of troops in the middle east. Having them there is the biggest waste of time, money and manpower ever.

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    Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gray View Post

    I still look forward to the day I can visit the western 2/3 of Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument, which has been closed for like a decade because of unsafe conditions.
    Although this is a small part of the situation that only effects a small portion of the US population, it's something that hits home for me... There are vast stretches of parks and recreation areas that have become unsafe... There have been several instances of problems from border crossers on Falcon Lake and Lake Amistad in Texas... These are two of the best Bass fisheries in the United States... The lakes haven't been completely shut down due to issues, but it has become similar to navigating neighborhoods in a big city... There are "good" areas to fish in and there are "bad" areas that you are ok passing through quickly, but you don't want to do the wrong thing in these areas or spend more time than you have to there... To me, it's just something that peeves me off... We have enough time gaining access to the resources we have available to us... Border problems are not a welcome contributer to this...
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    Re: A Discussion of US Immigration Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    Does anybody seriously speculate that our agribusiness might not depend extensively on immigrant labor? (you didn't say "illegal immigrant," but even then I would have a hard time believing that food prices wouldn't budge if you waved a magic wand and sent all the illegal immigrant farm workers back home)
    Agreed on this point. I never bought the "oh illegals do the work Americans won't" schtick with one exception, agriculture. Its been tried already and the US can't find enough Americans to pick veggies in the field all day. That's why my proposal specifically creates a seasonal visa for these people, but with a provision their money gets wired back home so that they go back when the season is done.
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