Making a Murderer updates

[SJHovey]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

So, the blood evidence in the RAV4. How do you explain the fact that there is a big smear of blood in that one spot, by the ignition, but there isn't any blood on the steering wheel, shift lever, hood latch, hood, door handle, truck latch, back lift gate, etc? If he was bleeding that much, to make that much of a smear, there would have been blood in more than just that 1 spot.

I don't know that you can necessarily explain it, except perhaps for the door handle. The cut was apparently on his right hand, and I don't know of anyone who opens a drivers side door with their right hand. It's too awkward. Try it some time.

Maybe the bloody spot on the top of his finger didn't touch the steering wheel. Maybe he wiped his hand on his pants. Who knows. But the absence of the blood doesn't necessarily prove that the blood by the ignition couldn't have gotten there off of Avery's hand, and it certainly doesn't prove anyone planted it there. It simply raises a question. Whether that question creates a reasonable doubt for the jury is up to them.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

I do not thing Avery or Dassey are guilty of killing TH. Neither of them did it, IMO. I am not saying that Avery is a great guy, or innocent of everything, but I see no way that he killed her, based on the evidence presented.

1. The Trailer - Supposedly she was raped and killed in the trailer. This never happened, it couldn't have happened. They found no TH DNA, or any other kind of evidence of her in the trailer. There is no way that she was raped, attacked or killed in the trailer with no evidence. It is impossible.
2. The Garage/Bullet - Similar to the trailer, if she was killed in the garage, there would be evidence of it. There is none. There is no way to clean up the amount of blood from the floor of that garage, and clean it out of the crack in the concrete. It is impossible.
3. The Bones - It is nearly impossible to cremate a body, to the point of reducing it to pieces of bone in an open fire, in that short amount of time. Burning a body is very difficult, it takes a massive amount of heat, and/or a long amount of time. There is now way that an open fire could cremate a body in one night.
4. The RAV4 - It was found across the street from Tadych's house days after TH went missing. Then mysteriously showed back up at ASY, after it was reported to Deputy Colborne. At the same time, Tadych's buddy texted him (there is evidence of the texts), that it was there, Tadych never said anything about it. Next thing we know, it is found at ASY, with a new battery. It was not stashed at ASY until just before it was found, and there is evidence and witness testimony to prove that.
5. The Blood - First, TH blood is in the back of the RAV, how did it get there if she was killed at Avery's? There would be no reason, or time, to put her in the back if she was cremated that night at Avery's. Her body was placed in the back, and transported in that car, and that is proven by evidence. Second, Avery's blood. It makes no sense for there to be 1 smear of blood. If he was bleeding that much, his blood would be in many places in that car, as would his fingerprints. How do you explain one smear of blood, but now fingerprints or other spots of blood in the car? You cannot explain it.
6. The Cell Phone - There was a voicemail deleted after she went missing. How did this happen? It wasn't Avery, it was her ex-boyfriend. Why was the ex-boyfriend accessing her phone and deleting voicemails?
7. The Planner - She received a call before getting to ASY, and she wrote that appointment in her planner. It is in her planner, and there is testimony of the call. So, it is fact that she had her planner with her the day she went missing. But, we also know that the police were given her planner by her roommate, it was at her house. How did her planner get to her house, if she had it in her car the day she went missing?
8. The Key - Why is the 2nd key, backup key the one that was found? Why would she be using her backup key that day? Sure, there may be good reason for it, but then where are her 1st set of keys? Also, how is it possible that Avery's DNA is the only DNA on that key? Why is TH's not on the key? Why are there no fingerprints on the key? Why is the 2nd key seen in the background during the interview of her roommate, after she was reported missing? The answer is, the key that was found was not the key she was using that day, the key that was found was at her house the whole time, while she used her original keys. They found the RAV4, and didn't have keys, then retrieved the 2nd key from her house, cleaned it well, and planted Avery touch DNA on the key.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

I don't know that you can necessarily explain it, except perhaps for the door handle. The cut was apparently on his right hand, and I don't know of anyone who opens a drivers side door with their right hand. It's too awkward. Try it some time.

Maybe the bloody spot on the top of his finger didn't touch the steering wheel. Maybe he wiped his hand on his pants. Who knows. But the absence of the blood doesn't necessarily prove that the blood by the ignition couldn't have gotten there off of Avery's hand, and it certainly doesn't prove anyone planted it there. It simply raises a question. Whether that question creates a reasonable doubt for the jury is up to them.

In the pictures of the cut on his finger that were shown, the cut is on the side of the finger, not the top. My argument is, if it was bleeding so much that made that kind of a mark by the ignition (that is a lot of blood for a finger cut), it would be bleeding on other items while he drove the car. With that much blood, it would likely be dripping.

[SJHovey]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

I do not thing Avery or Dassey are guilty of killing TH. Neither of them did it, IMO. I am not saying that Avery is a great guy, or innocent of everything, but I see no way that he killed her, based on the evidence presented.

1. The Trailer - Supposedly she was raped and killed in the trailer. This never happened, it couldn't have happened. They found no TH DNA, or any other kind of evidence of her in the trailer. There is no way that she was raped, attacked or killed in the trailer with no evidence. It is impossible.
2. The Garage/Bullet - Similar to the trailer, if she was killed in the garage, there would be evidence of it. There is none. There is no way to clean up the amount of blood from the floor of that garage, and clean it out of the crack in the concrete. It is impossible.
3. The Bones - It is nearly impossible to cremate a body, to the point of reducing it to pieces of bone in an open fire, in that short amount of time. Burning a body is very difficult, it takes a massive amount of heat, and/or a long amount of time. There is now way that an open fire could cremate a body in one night.
4. The RAV4 - It was found across the street from Tadych's house days after TH went missing. Then mysteriously showed back up at ASY, after it was reported to Deputy Colborne. At the same time, Tadych's buddy texted him (there is evidence of the texts), that it was there, Tadych never said anything about it. Next thing we know, it is found at ASY, with a new battery. It was not stashed at ASY until just before it was found, and there is evidence and witness testimony to prove that.
5. The Blood - First, TH blood is in the back of the RAV, how did it get there if she was killed at Avery's? There would be no reason, or time, to put her in the back if she was cremated that night at Avery's. Her body was placed in the back, and transported in that car, and that is proven by evidence. Second, Avery's blood. It makes no sense for there to be 1 smear of blood. If he was bleeding that much, his blood would be in many places in that car, as would his fingerprints. How do you explain one smear of blood, but now fingerprints or other spots of blood in the car? You cannot explain it.
6. The Cell Phone - There was a voicemail deleted after she went missing. How did this happen? It wasn't Avery, it was her ex-boyfriend. Why was the ex-boyfriend accessing her phone and deleting voicemails?
7. The Planner - She received a call before getting to ASY, and she wrote that appointment in her planner. It is in her planner, and there is testimony of the call. So, it is fact that she had her planner with her the day she went missing. But, we also know that the police were given her planner by her roommate, it was at her house. How did her planner get to her house, if she had it in her car the day she went missing?
8. The Key - Why is the 2nd key, backup key the one that was found? Why would she be using her backup key that day? Sure, there may be good reason for it, but then where are her 1st set of keys? Also, how is it possible that Avery's DNA is the only DNA on that key? Why is TH's not on the key? Why are there no fingerprints on the key? Why is the 2nd key seen in the background during the interview of her roommate, after she was reported missing? The answer is, the key that was found was not the key she was using that day, the key that was found was at her house the whole time, while she used her original keys. They found the RAV4, and didn't have keys, then retrieved the 2nd key from her house, cleaned it well, and planted Avery touch DNA on the key.

Part of the problem here is the part I placed in bold. There is an eagerness (natural, in my opinion) on the part of individuals who believe in Avery's innocence to take little nuggets of information, which may not even be confirmed or have any basis in fact, were certainly not part of any court record, and usually arise out of some Reddit discussion thread, and give that information the weight of formal evidence submitted in court.

For example, things like the "wrong battery" theory developed on Reddit, which has evolved into this theory that Halbach's battery died and was then replaced by the "real killers" in order to move her car. Even if we were to believe that the battery in the Rav4 was not the factory issued battery, there is certainly no supporting evidence for the idea that it was swapped out on the day of the murder or shortly thereafter in order to move the car into the Avery lot.

Another example is the location of the Rav4. You state it was found across from Tadych's house. What we know is that 10 years after the murder, and after the case became a cause celeb, some guy comes forward claiming that he saw the vehicle and reported it to the number one bad guy for "truthers," Andy Colburn. As far as I know, this witness, his possible motives, or even his factual basis for his statements have not been subjected to any sort of examination. Even more interesting is that the new witness' story doesn't fit with Zellner's own theory about the location of the Rav4 due to cell phone pings.

It's certainly an interesting case. But you'll have to pardon me if I don't accept as "evidence" a lot of the statements floated about on twitter, Reddit or this message board about what the "evidence" is, as opposed to evidence that would be admitted into a court of law.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

To summarize:

TH wasn't killed or raped in Avery's trailer, or his garage. She wasn't burned in his fire pit. Her body was transported in her car. There are items that should be with her car at her house, and items that should be at her house at Avery's. Her car is found not at Avery's prior to publicly being found, and several people knew about it. Yet, her car, bones, key and DNA all ended up at Avery's.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

Part of the problem here is the part I placed in bold. There is an eagerness (natural, in my opinion) on the part of individuals who believe in Avery's innocence to take little nuggets of information, which may not even be confirmed or have any basis in fact, were certainly not part of any court record, and usually arise out of some Reddit discussion thread, and give that information the weight of formal evidence submitted in court.

For example, things like the "wrong battery" theory developed on Reddit, which has evolved into this theory that Halbach's battery died and was then replaced by the "real killers" in order to move her car. Even if we were to believe that the battery in the Rav4 was not the factory issued battery, there is certainly no supporting evidence for the idea that it was swapped out on the day of the murder or shortly thereafter in order to move the car into the Avery lot.

Another example is the location of the Rav4. You state it was found across from Tadych's house. What we know is that 10 years after the murder, and after the case became a cause celeb, some guy comes forward claiming that he saw the vehicle and reported it to the number one bad guy for "truthers," Andy Colburn. As far as I know, this witness, his possible motives, or even his factual basis for his statements have not been subjected to any sort of examination. Even more interesting is that the new witness' story doesn't fit with Zellner's own theory about the location of the Rav4 due to cell phone pings.

It's certainly an interesting case. But you'll have to pardon me if I don't accept as "evidence" a lot of the statements floated about on twitter, Reddit or this message board about what the "evidence" is, as opposed to evidence that would be admitted into a court of law.

But with the car being found, there are text messages, with time/date stamps from the day the car was found around Tadych's house...How do you fake that?

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

But with the car being found, there are text messages, with time/date stamps from the day the car was found around Tadych's house...How do you fake that?

and the coburn license plate check phone call...

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

And for cell phone pings, I didn't bring that up, because I question KZ's conclusion and her test on that portion. I don't think locating a cell phone based on pings, when you look at how close those locations are is very accurate. The distance traveled by TH's cell phone that day is not that far, and IMO, it doesn't mean that her cell phone must have changed towers. I go back to another big social media case, Serial season 1, Adnan Syed, and that case also dealt alot with cell phone pings. Based on the information presented in that podcast, and in other places, I am of the belief that cell phone pings is not an exact science. So, I don't really buy that part of KZ's argument. If the distance traveled was a long distance, and the pings are from towers a great distance apart, then I would put more credence in it. But when the pinging is between 2 adjacent towers, there no telling when a phone bounces from one tower to the other when it is equidistant from both.

[SJHovey]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

But with the car being found, there are text messages, with time/date stamps from the day the car was found around Tadych's house...How do you fake that?

I'm not aware of those text messages.

I recall that the new witness, who came forward long after the trial and after watching Making a Murderer, supposedly called Colburn and also texted Tadych. But those text messages were years after the murder, and even after the show was aired.

Are there some text messages regarding the finding of the Rav4 contemporaneous with the murder?

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

I'm not aware of those text messages.

I recall that the new witness, who came forward long after the trial and after watching Making a Murderer, supposedly called Colburn and also texted Tadych. But those text messages were years after the murder, and even after the show was aired.

Are there some text messages regarding the finding of the Rav4 contemporaneous with the murder?

I believe the text messages were well after the murder, but before the witness was supposedly trying to get notoriety, or publicity off of the popularity of MAM. If I remember right, the text messages were to Scott Tadych, after the witness saw Colborne on MAM, he texted Scott saying something like 'you need to call me, the guy in MAM is the guy I told about the car'. So the argument is, he went to the family, to Scott (whom he knew), and didn't go seeking out publicity. Those messages happened well before he was out there talking with Zellner.

[Handyman]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

Part of the problem here is the part I placed in bold. There is an eagerness (natural, in my opinion) on the part of individuals who believe in Avery's innocence to take little nuggets of information, which may not even be confirmed or have any basis in fact, were certainly not part of any court record, and usually arise out of some Reddit discussion thread, and give that information the weight of formal evidence submitted in court.

For example, things like the "wrong battery" theory developed on Reddit, which has evolved into this theory that Halbach's battery died and was then replaced by the "real killers" in order to move her car. Even if we were to believe that the battery in the Rav4 was not the factory issued battery, there is certainly no supporting evidence for the idea that it was swapped out on the day of the murder or shortly thereafter in order to move the car into the Avery lot.

Another example is the location of the Rav4. You state it was found across from Tadych's house. What we know is that 10 years after the murder, and after the case became a cause celeb, some guy comes forward claiming that he saw the vehicle and reported it to the number one bad guy for "truthers," Andy Colburn. As far as I know, this witness, his possible motives, or even his factual basis for his statements have not been subjected to any sort of examination. Even more interesting is that the new witness' story doesn't fit with Zellner's own theory about the location of the Rav4 due to cell phone pings.

It's certainly an interesting case. But you'll have to pardon me if I don't accept as "evidence" a lot of the statements floated about on twitter, Reddit or this message board about what the "evidence" is, as opposed to evidence that would be admitted into a court of law.

Sorry but the RAV4 one is not some conspiracy theory like the Reddit one you mentioned. This is not some guy who ten years later wants to get famous. There is ample evidence to back up the story.

And bbdl brings up a good point...if TH was killed at the Avery Compound why did he put her in the back of the RAV4 at all? She wasnt moved to "rape her" she wasnt moved to "shoot her" and she wasnt moved to "burn her". All of that could have been done just by picking her up or dragging her. The whole of the prosecutions case, and all of the evidence that the "he is guilty" crowd go on is that she was there, and she never made it off the property. (he coveted what he saw every day and took it) For the RAV4 evidence to make sense she would have needed to leave and he would have had to follow her and bring her back but that goes against all of the testimony by Dassey and completely destroys the story in general. No one has said he left and followed her off the property.

Now maybe you could argue that they got the details wrong (which proves Dassey knew nothing and should be released) so he still did it they just dont know how. Well then they should have never been able to get a conviction. Nothing about any of this adds up. The accomplice testimony was bunk, the physical evidence is circumstantial at best and the motive is vague and unproven. As I said when I watched the first season...the only thing od is Avery is White because this is what they do to Black people usually.

Wisconsin best hope Zellner is all talk because if she wins this one, the lawsuits that will come about will make the Walker economy look like the Glory Days.

[Handyman]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

I believe the text messages were well after the murder, but before the witness was supposedly trying to get notoriety, or publicity off of the popularity of MAM. If I remember right, the text messages were to Scott Tadych, after the witness saw Colborne on MAM, he texted Scott saying something like 'you need to call me, the guy in MAM is the guy I told about the car'. So the argument is, he went to the family, to Scott (whom he knew), and didn't go seeking out publicity. Those messages happened well before he was out there talking with Zellner.

This is correct. And Tadych was ignoring him. And it wasnt like he was ignoring him cause he wanted to move on or wanted to stay out of the story...he has been an active participant in the series all along.

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

Yeah and Scott said he felt sick and didn’t get back to the guy, right? Lol

[trixR4kids]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

And for cell phone pings, I didn't bring that up, because I question KZ's conclusion and her test on that portion. I don't think locating a cell phone based on pings, when you look at how close those locations are is very accurate.

Cell phone pings have come up in other trials (Adnan Sayed and Joey Watkins, murders discussed in "Undisclosed" podcast and others) and you're right, they aren't remotely accurate at giving a location.

[SJHovey]

Re: Making a Murderer updates

Sorry but the RAV4 one is not some conspiracy theory like the Reddit one you mentioned. This is not some guy who ten years later wants to get famous. There is ample evidence to back up the story.

And bbdl brings up a good point...if TH was killed at the Avery Compound why did he put her in the back of the RAV4 at all? She wasnt moved to "rape her" she wasnt moved to "shoot her" and she wasnt moved to "burn her". All of that could have been done just by picking her up or dragging her. The whole of the prosecutions case, and all of the evidence that the "he is guilty" crowd go on is that she was there, and she never made it off the property. (he coveted what he saw every day and took it) For the RAV4 evidence to make sense she would have needed to leave and he would have had to follow her and bring her back but that goes against all of the testimony by Dassey and completely destroys the story in general. No one has said he left and followed her off the property.

Now maybe you could argue that they got the details wrong (which proves Dassey knew nothing and should be released) so he still did it they just dont know how. Well then they should have never been able to get a conviction. Nothing about any of this adds up. The accomplice testimony was bunk, the physical evidence is circumstantial at best and the motive is vague and unproven. As I said when I watched the first season...the only thing od is Avery is White because this is what they do to Black people usually.

Wisconsin best hope Zellner is all talk because if she wins this one, the lawsuits that will come about will make the Walker economy look like the Glory Days.

I posted this earlier, but I'll repeat it. I do think it's unlikely Halbach was killed in the trailer or garage. I just think they'd have found blood.

I also don't think that the prosecution's narrative as to precisely how and where the murder happened turns out to be correct. But I don't think the blood in the Rav4 necessarily exonerates Avery.

He could very well have killed her in the yard, then loaded the body into her car with the intent to dispose of the body somewhere. He leaves the compound in the Rav4, maybe checks out the quarry for a spot to do it, or some other spots. Maybe then he hits on the idea of burning the body up, in the pit (probably not likely) or in a barrel somewhere on the property.

I don't know, but I think there are ways that the Rav4 evidence makes sense when Avery is still the killer. Yeah, no one has said he left, but no one has said he didn't leave either.