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  • Re: Making a Murderer updates

    Originally posted by jerphisch View Post
    So how does the key contain absolutely no DNA besides Avery's? Criminal mastermind Stephen Avery wipes it down so it's clean (after parking the car that has his blood all over it on his own property), then proceeds to carefully place it with his bare hands on his bedroom floor?
    I don't know. Those questions have been asked, and I don't know that anyone has the answer.

    I don't think anyone has suggested that he "placed" it on the floor, but it certainly ended up there.

    But I start with the admonition that you or someone else gave -- don't over think this.

    The key is in his home, with his DNA on it. On top of that there are the other connections to Avery and his property involving Halbach (she was last seen there, bones there, car there).

    If I'm a juror, I'm willing to listen to your arguments about no other DNA on the key. I'm willing to even listen to your arguments that it was planted.

    What I'm not willing to accept is your argument that because there is no other DNA on the key, and because it wasn't found until a few days later, it must have been planted. The first two do not require acceptance of the third.

    If you want to argue that it was planted, then give me the plausible story about who, when and how it was done. How did they get the key from the dead girls car, and when? How did they get Avery's DNA on it, and when? How did they get it planted, and when?

    With respect to the conspiracy theories regarding the planting of the evidence, we've concentrated so much on the motive of the police and really nothing on how or when they might have done it. I think that's why you've seen Zellner's theories about who is trying to frame Avery shift around over time. Yeah, there may be evidence that the ex was involved, but how do we fit him into all of the other evidence like the DNA on the car and the key and the items at Avery's property? Yeah, there is evidence that the police work is questionable, but how do we get the key with the DNA on it to the police, and when, without pointing the fingers at the cops as Halbach's killer?
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
      I don't know. Those questions have been asked, and I don't know that anyone has the answer.

      I don't think anyone has suggested that he "placed" it on the floor, but it certainly ended up there.

      But I start with the admonition that you or someone else gave -- don't over think this.

      The key is in his home, with his DNA on it. On top of that there are the other connections to Avery and his property involving Halbach (she was last seen there, bones there, car there).

      If I'm a juror, I'm willing to listen to your arguments about no other DNA on the key. I'm willing to even listen to your arguments that it was planted.

      What I'm not willing to accept is your argument that because there is no other DNA on the key, and because it wasn't found until a few days later, it must have been planted. The first two do not require acceptance of the third.

      If you want to argue that it was planted, then give me the plausible story about who, when and how it was done. How did they get the key from the dead girls car, and when? How did they get Avery's DNA on it, and when? How did they get it planted, and when?

      With respect to the conspiracy theories regarding the planting of the evidence, we've concentrated so much on the motive of the police and really nothing on how or when they might have done it. I think that's why you've seen Zellner's theories about who is trying to frame Avery shift around over time. Yeah, there may be evidence that the ex was involved, but how do we fit him into all of the other evidence like the DNA on the car and the key and the items at Avery's property? Yeah, there is evidence that the police work is questionable, but how do we get the key with the DNA on it to the police, and when, without pointing the fingers at the cops as Halbach's killer?
      The rav4 key is clearly seen n halbach’s apartment on the kitchen counter in a photograph where you see her roommate answering questions. The key must have been given by Hillegas to Pagel, Colburn or another cop. How else does it wind up at avery’s And why did Hillegas have 21 phone calls with LE on 10-31, a day on which presumably only the killer knows she’s dead?

      If you read through the court records and review the pictures that tick tockmanitowoc has posted on twitter (and is passing info to Zellner) you would know that both Ryan Hillegas and Bobby Dassey have a special relationship with certain former and current sheriff deputies. It becomes clear that regardless of Hillegas or Bobby or Scott killing her the cops were close to Bobby and Ryan and tgat’s how the pieces are falling. Lenk or Colburn planted the key. Calumet didn’t find it.

      On top of everything else shown by mam 1 and 2 we now know at least one cop has told Zellner Avery is innocent.

      Now we have her filing on dec 20th and that should include the results of luminol tests on Bobby Dassey’s garage.

      For the cops this was two things: 1 opportunity to frame Avery a man they hated going back to his game of chicken with a deputy in the early 80’s. 2 get rid of the $36m lawsuit.

      In this scenario I don’t know Hillegas’ motivation to cooperate...yet...Bobby is easy. Scott Tadych as well. The guy got a new house shortly after this. That’s a public record.
      Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


      "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

      "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

      Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

      Comment


      • Re: Making a Murderer updates

        Another unanswered question.

        Where is her key chain with the keys she used for her rav and apartment? The one found is a spare.

        Also, who changed the battery on the rav to get it moved from in front of tadych’s old house to the Avery property? Where is the receipt for that transaction?
        Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


        "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

        "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

        Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

        Comment


        • Re: Making a Murderer updates

          Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
          I don't know. Those questions have been asked, and I don't know that anyone has the answer.

          I don't think anyone has suggested that he "placed" it on the floor, but it certainly ended up there.

          But I start with the admonition that you or someone else gave -- don't over think this.

          The key is in his home, with his DNA on it. On top of that there are the other connections to Avery and his property involving Halbach (she was last seen there, bones there, car there).

          If I'm a juror, I'm willing to listen to your arguments about no other DNA on the key. I'm willing to even listen to your arguments that it was planted.

          What I'm not willing to accept is your argument that because there is no other DNA on the key, and because it wasn't found until a few days later, it must have been planted. The first two do not require acceptance of the third.

          If you want to argue that it was planted, then give me the plausible story about who, when and how it was done. How did they get the key from the dead girls car, and when? How did they get Avery's DNA on it, and when? How did they get it planted, and when?

          With respect to the conspiracy theories regarding the planting of the evidence, we've concentrated so much on the motive of the police and really nothing on how or when they might have done it. I think that's why you've seen Zellner's theories about who is trying to frame Avery shift around over time. Yeah, there may be evidence that the ex was involved, but how do we fit him into all of the other evidence like the DNA on the car and the key and the items at Avery's property? Yeah, there is evidence that the police work is questionable, but how do we get the key with the DNA on it to the police, and when, without pointing the fingers at the cops as Halbach's killer?
          If I was a juror I would say it "must have been planted" but I would say "it might have been" and once I accept that fact then things tend to go downhill fast.

          That is the thing I dont get...there is enough reasonable doubt to drive a semi truck through sideways even before Zellner was involved. Avery's attorney's should have been able to destroy this case easily. I get the judge kind of hamstrung them but still.
          "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
          -aparch

          "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
          -INCH

          Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
          -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

          Comment


          • Re: Making a Murderer updates

            https://t.co/S85MAHt9rk
            Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


            "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

            "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

            Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
              I'm not sure if it was blood, or if was just DNA. Also, iirc, Zellner initially claimed that the police planted the DNA on the key, but I think she's backtracked from that and claims that it's the ex who did it. But that raises a whole lot of other questions about where he came up with the DNA, and why he'd do it.
              Did the documentary go into the details of the DNA analysis? I mostly ask because DNA isn’t always the smoking gun people believe it is especially if the people handling it can be called into question in any way (I haven’t watched the first MaM in a long time but I thought I remember this coming into question). They wouldn’t necessarily even have to plant his DNA on objects in that case.

              Comment


              • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                More from Zellner

                https://t.co/DctksvcKdw
                Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


                "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

                "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

                Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

                Comment


                • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                  I just hung out with a friend from high school yesterday and MaM came up...I pointed out that we went to school with Kachinsky's daughter and he was shocked...
                  Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

                  Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

                  Comment


                  • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                    https://www.wbay.com/content/news/St...502963021.html
                    Hopefully this makes season 3, or 4.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                      It doesnt blame him...his crappy work as a cop just makes it a definite possibility he did it
                      "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                      -aparch

                      "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                      -INCH

                      Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                      -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                      Comment


                      • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                        Well Colburn, bad news part 1: Zellner Just filed a motion to have the bones found in 3 piles in the gravel pit tested with Rapid ID DNA testing approved by the FBI in June 2018. It’s used by homeland security, FBI and was used to ID wildfire victims. Tick Tock because if these bones are Halbach’s the State’s narrative is destroyed and a new trial will be granted. The appellate court will rule within days.

                        If the tests are approved a stay will be issued as to the dec 20 filing which should contain luminol results.

                        One way or another Avery and Dassey will be freed. Whether the killer is indicted is another story. The bones could produce dna from whomever moved them, so.......
                        Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


                        "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

                        "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

                        Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

                        Comment


                        • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                          Here are the goods laid bare

                          @tManitowoc check his twitter feed: Tick Tock Manitowoc

                          Andrew Colburn and his lawyer Michael Greisbach may have just ****ed up royally
                          Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


                          "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

                          "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

                          Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Adam_Krug#1 View Post
                            https://www.wbay.com/content/news/St...502963021.html
                            Hopefully this makes season 3, or 4.
                            I hope so. Moron just likely opened himself and his buddies up to being deposed

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
                              I hope so. Moron just likely opened himself and his buddies up to being deposed
                              Along with one Stephen A. Avery. Does he plead the fifth, which I think means in a civil case that the evidence can be construed against you, or does he expose himself to questioning by trial counsel. I’m not convinced that this isn’t part of the prosecution strategy.
                              That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                                Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
                                Right but how exactly do you explain this part? They tore the place apart numerous times and just find that key on the third try when the two shady detectives happen to be around?

                                Personally I think certain evidence is hard to explain away like the blood in the RAV, I kinda doubt it was just planted (and the whole conspiracy angle seems outrageous though I haven't watched MAM2). But the key to me is the biggest evidence of something weird going on from the law enforcement side of things.
                                So, the blood evidence in the RAV4. How do you explain the fact that there is a big smear of blood in that one spot, by the ignition, but there isn't any blood on the steering wheel, shift lever, hood latch, hood, door handle, truck latch, back lift gate, etc? If he was bleeding that much, to make that much of a smear, there would have been blood in more than just that 1 spot.
                                Having a clear conscience just means you have a bad memory or you had a boring weekend.

                                RIP - Kirby

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