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  • Re: Making a Murderer updates

    I would assume Avery is probably a loudmouthed d-bag who is probably a PITA to live with and yells and screams all the friggin time. I probably would not want to know him. I dont think he did this crime AT ALL. I dont know who did (though I have my suspicions) but the evidence is flimsy anyways before Zellner proved even more of it wrong and the circumstances behind finding the evidence by the cops is so shady it is facepalm worthy.

    Here is the thing, in general I am a skeptic. So I question everything and then see if the argument made holds up. Usually serves me well. Evidence like the key definitely seems to be ****ing at first. Then you ask yourself...well why did it take so many searches to find it? Why was it all of a sudden just in plain sight when before it was not? And the ultimate question why would Avery keep the key when he knows the cops are investigating him. It isnt like it is hard to get rid of a key. Next time you go somewhere drop it in a sewer drain or a big trash bin in an alley. Throw it in the lake or river...a 7 year old could figure that out.

    But that can be argued against by saying he is a moron. I can buy that cause he does seem like quite the moron. But that narrative dies when it comes to how they supposedly killed her in the garage. (according to Dassey's testimony) With the details that Dassey gave (all of which were used to convict Avery) there should have been evidence EVERYWHERE! I dont care how much you clean there is going to be massive amounts of blood you miss. Nothing. No evidence to show the awful rape. It isnt like he lived in a spotless house to begin with, his place was a mess. So you are telling me there is nothing of value anywhere? I guarantee you right now there is traceable blood all over my sink and I clean that all of the time and that is just from a little nick here and there. They supposedly bludgeoned and slaughtered a girl in the house of a slob and nothing. So these morons are somehow smart enough to clean up after themselves to the point you cant prove anything?

    The two stories dont add up. Nor does it add up that the same people who are smart enough to clean a crime scene of blood that perfectly would then choose to keep the Rav 4 on the property and try and hide it with like 2 pieces of wood. Not to mention allow the search on your property when you know it is there.

    None of this passes the smell test...none of it does. Even the ****ing evidence not shown in the Docs doesnt prove anything and certainly doesnt make me think he did it.
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    • Re: Making a Murderer updates

      Originally posted by Handyman View Post
      I would assume Avery is probably a loudmouthed d-bag who is probably a PITA to live with and yells and screams all the friggin time. I probably would not want to know him. I dont think he did this crime AT ALL. I dont know who did (though I have my suspicions) but the evidence is flimsy anyways before Zellner proved even more of it wrong and the circumstances behind finding the evidence by the cops is so shady it is facepalm worthy.

      Here is the thing, in general I am a skeptic. So I question everything and then see if the argument made holds up. Usually serves me well. Evidence like the key definitely seems to be ****ing at first. Then you ask yourself...well why did it take so many searches to find it? Why was it all of a sudden just in plain sight when before it was not? And the ultimate question why would Avery keep the key when he knows the cops are investigating him. It isnt like it is hard to get rid of a key. Next time you go somewhere drop it in a sewer drain or a big trash bin in an alley. Throw it in the lake or river...a 7 year old could figure that out.

      But that can be argued against by saying he is a moron. I can buy that cause he does seem like quite the moron. But that narrative dies when it comes to how they supposedly killed her in the garage. (according to Dassey's testimony) With the details that Dassey gave (all of which were used to convict Avery) there should have been evidence EVERYWHERE! I dont care how much you clean there is going to be massive amounts of blood you miss. Nothing. No evidence to show the awful rape. It isnt like he lived in a spotless house to begin with, his place was a mess. So you are telling me there is nothing of value anywhere? I guarantee you right now there is traceable blood all over my sink and I clean that all of the time and that is just from a little nick here and there. They supposedly bludgeoned and slaughtered a girl in the house of a slob and nothing. So these morons are somehow smart enough to clean up after themselves to the point you cant prove anything?

      The two stories dont add up. Nor does it add up that the same people who are smart enough to clean a crime scene of blood that perfectly would then choose to keep the Rav 4 on the property and try and hide it with like 2 pieces of wood. Not to mention allow the search on your property when you know it is there.

      None of this passes the smell test...none of it does. Even the ****ing evidence not shown in the Docs doesnt prove anything and certainly doesnt make me think he did it.
      I don't think there is any doubt that the "killing in the garage" narrative is garbage. There is simply no evidence of it. The prosecution should have simply taken the approach that we don't know exactly where he killed her, but the evidence of the key in his house, his blood in the Rav and her bones in his yard, coupled with him being the last person to see her alive, says he did it. I don't think you have to prove where she was killed on the property.

      But that's the mistake the prosecution and cops frequently make. They have a case, with decent evidence, but they always want to make it a lock, so they start creating evidence and narratives to supplement the real stuff, and that's where they get in trouble.
      That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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      • Re: Making a Murderer updates

        Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
        but the evidence of the key in his house
        Right but how exactly do you explain this part? They tore the place apart numerous times and just find that key on the third try when the two shady detectives happen to be around?

        Personally I think certain evidence is hard to explain away like the blood in the RAV, I kinda doubt it was just planted (and the whole conspiracy angle seems outrageous though I haven't watched MAM2). But the key to me is the biggest evidence of something weird going on from the law enforcement side of things.

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        • Re: Making a Murderer updates

          It just all goes back to "reasonable doubt" with the case. I think without the tampering stuff, he would have been convicted, per the law standard. However, any shadow of a doubt is magnified by all the allegations of misconduct by the PD.
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          • Re: Making a Murderer updates

            Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
            Right but how exactly do you explain this part? They tore the place apart numerous times and just find that key on the third try when the two shady detectives happen to be around?

            Personally I think certain evidence is hard to explain away like the blood in the RAV, I kinda doubt it was just planted (and the whole conspiracy angle seems outrageous though I haven't watched MAM2). But the key to me is the biggest evidence of something weird going on from the law enforcement side of things.
            I don't know how they missed it, or why. I can't even state with certainty that it wasn't planted. Those are all points the defense can, and did, argue.

            What were the cops looking for when they first searched the house and missed it? My guess is that they were looking for things like blood, signs of violent struggle, guns or weapons, especially anything with blood on them, spent shell casings, things like that. Do they over look a plain looking key chain? Possibly. Keep in mind the cops weren't exactly searching the sitting room of the top suite at The Plaza hotel in NYC, where even a nose tissue on the desk looks out of place. Avery's house was a dump, well on it's way to being a hoarder house. Who knows what the cops missed there.

            Second, if you're going to claim it's planted, especially by the police, explain that to me, as a juror. Yeah, you claim they had motive because of the lawsuit. Yeah, you claim they had access because they were in the house. But how and when did they get the friggin' key, and get Avery's blood on it before they planted it?
            That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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            • Re: Making a Murderer updates

              Wasn’t that discussed in the recent series? Her ex had means to get the key I thought

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              • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                Originally posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
                Wasn’t that discussed in the recent series? Her ex had means to get the key I thought
                Sure, but that's what I was alluding to in my posts yesterday. Once you start expanding the participants in the conspiracy, how do you even get it to work.

                So, someone, not Avery, kills Halbach. The ex gets the key (how, I don't recall), then gets it to the police so they can frame Avery? Why would the ex do that, unless he was the killer? The police then get some blood on it (again, not sure how) and plant the key? And if the ex is the killer, then when and how did he do all of the moving of the bones onto the Avery property, and the Rav onto the Avery property. I though Tadych was the killer, with Bobby Dassey, because of all the bad porn on his computer and because they supposedly lied about each other's alibis?
                That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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                • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                  I'm gonna go out on a limb and say whoever killed her probably had the ability to get the key of the car she was driving when she was killed, use that key in the car, and put both the car and key wherever they pleased. No need to over think it.

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                  • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                    Was Avery's blood on the key?

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                    • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                      Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
                      Was Avery's blood on the key?
                      I'm not sure if it was blood, or if was just DNA. Also, iirc, Zellner initially claimed that the police planted the DNA on the key, but I think she's backtracked from that and claims that it's the ex who did it. But that raises a whole lot of other questions about where he came up with the DNA, and why he'd do it.
                      That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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                      • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                        Originally posted by jerphisch View Post
                        I'm gonna go out on a limb and say whoever killed her probably had the ability to get the key of the car she was driving when she was killed, use that key in the car, and put both the car and key wherever they pleased. No need to over think it.
                        Exactly. So, are we claiming the cops killed her and took the key, because that's been the original claim all along that the cops planted the key.

                        Or are we claiming the ex killed her and took the key. If so, when and where did he get Avery's DNA to plant on the key and in the car, and how did he get the key into Avery's house?
                        That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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                        • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                          Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                          Exactly. So, are we claiming the cops killed her and took the key, because that's been the original claim all along that the cops planted the key.

                          Or are we claiming the ex killed her and took the key. If so, when and where did he get Avery's DNA to plant on the key and in the car, and how did he get the key into Avery's house?
                          I'm asking this in all seriousness, have you watched season 2? It addresses a lot of these details. Not the how did it get there part, but the DNA on the key and many other questions you have are addressed in detail.

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                          • Originally posted by jerphisch View Post
                            I'm asking this in all seriousness, have you watched season 2? It addresses a lot of these details. Not the how did it get there part, but the DNA on the key and many other questions you have are addressed in detail.
                            I’ve watched it.
                            That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                              Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                              I’ve watched it.
                              So how does the key contain absolutely no DNA besides Avery's? Criminal mastermind Stephen Avery wipes it down so it's clean (after parking the car that has his blood all over it on his own property), then proceeds to carefully place it with his bare hands on his bedroom floor?

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                              • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                                Let's check in with Dassey's lawyer.

                                A court clerk accused Kachinsky of harassing her beginning in 2017, saying he had sent her inappropriate personal emails, posted personal information about her, and allegedly done a variety of other weird and creepy things. These included filing a reprimand against her for “refusing to acknowledge or return Christmas greetings from him,” mentioning that he had noticed her mother’s location on a Facebook feature called “Nearby Friends,” and sitting next to her desk “for almost 40 minutes tapping a pen on a legal pad in his lap, staring at her and making ‘cat noises’ until she was so uncomfortable that she left.”
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