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  • #16
    So should they fully commit next year it would be 2020-21 before Saint Anselm is fully Division III.
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    • #17
      Re: State of D-II Hockey

      Originally posted by PrezdeJohnson09 View Post
      So should they fully commit next year it would be 2020-21 before Saint Anselm is fully Division III.
      True, shy of any waivers.

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      • #18
        Re: State of D-II Hockey

        I'm assuming the 2020-21 date would be the point at which Saint Anselm would be able to compete in the NCAA postseason, but would their regular season games against DIII schools before that count? I know their current NEHC games count towards the league standings, but they don't count towards the national DIII standings. Would they be able to play in the NEHC hockey tournament right away? I know teams moving up a division in other sports generally can't take part in the national or conference postseason during the transitional period, but their games during the regular season do count towards both the conference and national standings. I don't know the rules for teams moving down though.
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        • #19
          Re: State of D-II Hockey

          Originally posted by joecct View Post
          The rule is no more playups, but if D-II does not offer a championship in a sport, a D-II member may declare for the D-I championship. This declaration is good for 2 years.

          Thus, the NE-10 can declare for the D-I championship and OOC games v D-I teams would count for both schools. Plus 6 teams makes a conference for D-I purposes.

          They'd be seed #16 and cannon fodder for the #1 seed. But they'd have a post season that counts.
          Thanks for clarifying this. I mentioned on the D-I board that I thought all play ups were no longer allowed, but the article I cited described RIT's attempt to promote their women's team to D-I and I forgot that RIT is D-III in all other sports.

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          • #20
            Re: State of D-II Hockey

            Originally posted by Buckeye22 View Post
            My solution if Post joins and St. A's stays would be to have the NE-10 schools stop playing DIII schools all together. Have each of the 7 DII schools play each other 4 times each (twice at home and twice on the road). Thats a 24 game schedule right there. Throw in an exhibition game against a CIS school or the US U-18s plus the NE-10 tournament (depending on how they formatted it) and you'd have a 25-30 game schedule. Sure, playing the same teams every year might get repetitive, but at least it would give their seasons more meaning, rather than the weird quasi-exhibition schedules they play now. Also they would be able to offer scholarships again (if they wanted to). Never going to happen but I think it would be best.

            As for moving up to DI and having to offer scholarships, you're right. They wouldn't have to. The Ivys, the Service Academies, Union and RIT don't offer scholarships for hockey (The Ivys voluntarily, the Service Academies because tuition is free anyway and RIT and Union because they're DIII schools which weren't grandfathered in with the other DIII schools). I'm not an expert on how all the finances work by any means, but I imagine there has to be other added costs in addition to just scholarships. Otherwise, wouldn't everyone just go DI in every sport? With the exception of St. A's, none of them have DI quality facilities (granted neither do Bentley, Sacred Heart or AIC) either, so finding OOC teams that would want to travel to them would probably be tough too.
            I cannot speak to the other DII schools, however, SNHU could play in the big rink in downtown Manchester. That is available to them.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by SNHUPenman View Post
              I cannot speak to the other DII schools, however, SNHU could play in the big rink in downtown Manchester. That is available to them.
              Do you think they would get a decent crowd there if it was D1 hockey? I can't think of many things worse than playing in a huge arena with no one there.
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              • #22
                Re: State of D-II Hockey

                Originally posted by PrezdeJohnson09 View Post
                Do you think they would get a decent crowd there if it was D1 hockey? I can't think of many things worse than playing in a huge arena with no one there.
                I think being DI and having something to play for would increase their crowd size. The Verizon is 10k in seating, so I think at best they would only be able to draw only 25% of that. So it would always seem pretty empty...however, UNH hockey is down...they do not sell out anymore. And the Manchester Monarchs are ECHL versus AHL- so I assume their crowds have decreased as well. I strongly think there is a market for hockey in central NH...they'd need to be creative and have special ticket offerings etc...and have a STH drive to start. But I think overtime they could put together a good atmosphere...it may also depend on who comes to town as well...

                I went to a game there this year that was SNHU vs Franklin Pierce...it was empty...hardly anyone there...but honestly...what incentive to people have to watch two DII schools that have basically nothing to play for?

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                • #23
                  Re: State of D-II Hockey

                  Interesting discussion concerning future of D2 hockey which bought up a few thoughts.
                  1. Do any D2 programs actually want to move to D1, and could they afford it. I can not see St. Mike's playing D1 games in the South Burlington rink.
                  2. What St. A's players are upset about going D3. The only sport we are probable talking about is D2 basketball which has a long history in the D2 schools. I bet the St. A's hockey team would be very happy to go D3 and with there fine athletic facilities could turn the program into the St.Norbert of the East. 50 miles from Boston in a city with an AHL team is not a bad drawing card.
                  3. The future of D2 hockey is not great; St. A's is planning to leave and the rest of the teams realize when they are gone there won't be much of a league left. Also there has been a lot of talk about D3 not wanting to play D2 teams because of games don't count. It is getting very competitive as we have seen with Plattsburgh State in getting an NCAA bid and D2 games can effect the regional ratings.
                  4. In another year or so when St. A's goes D3 the whole think should shake out and a clearer picture of D2 hockey will present itself.
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                  • #24
                    Re: State of D-II Hockey

                    Originally posted by hawk View Post
                    Interesting discussion concerning future of D2 hockey which bought up a few thoughts.
                    1. Do any D2 programs actually want to move to D1, and could they afford it. I can not see St. Mike's playing D1 games in the South Burlington rink.
                    2. What St. A's players are upset about going D3. The only sport we are probable talking about is D2 basketball which has a long history in the D2 schools. I bet the St. A's hockey team would be very happy to go D3 and with there fine athletic facilities could turn the program into the St.Norbert of the East. 50 miles from Boston in a city with an AHL team is not a bad drawing card.
                    3. The future of D2 hockey is not great; St. A's is planning to leave and the rest of the teams realize when they are gone there won't be much of a league left. Also there has been a lot of talk about D3 not wanting to play D2 teams because of games don't count. It is getting very competitive as we have seen with Plattsburgh State in getting an NCAA bid and D2 games can effect the regional ratings.
                    4. In another year or so when St. A's goes D3 the whole think should shake out and a clearer picture of D2 hockey will present itself.
                    SNHU has the money to play DI should they chose to and are able to per NCAA. I have asked the AD previously the status of the program. He told me they care very much and do not want to stop playing hockey. However, there is no way we move down to DIII. We are far too competitive in all of our other sports and already have radio and TV deals in place for basketball. We are the most broadcast team in NH.

                    St. A's is certainly going to make everyone's hands move on this subject, which I am very happy about. I see St. Mike's trying to follow them down to DIII. Have no idea what Franklin Piece, Assumption, or Stonehill are thinking. Franklin Pierce did have an issue with hazing this year and stopped playing with three games remaining on the schedule. I don't think Assumption or Stonehill would move down as they are competitive in football in the NE-10, and Franklin Pierce is a perennial national title contender in baseball so if I had to bet, they'd all be more likely to drop their programs then move. I also kind of hope DIII teams stop scheduling us...we need to get our own identity in this sport...and we have put it off for far too long.

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                    • #25
                      Re: State of D-II Hockey

                      Whatever happens, it'd be a shame for some to go down to D-III (and leave the NE-10 in the process) while others try a different route.

                      The "D-I Hockey Play-up" strategy would really work best with everyone up, as that bands them all together in AHA and has 8 NE-10 teams (plus Merrimack, who have a better thing going in D-I hockey) for a conference of their own (which can observe whatever scholarship rules they like to help ease the costs).

                      Although I suppose if they split apart the "D-I" NE-10 schools can just band together in AHA, where cost management is the name of the game.
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                      • #26
                        Re: State of D-II Hockey

                        Originally posted by hawk View Post
                        Interesting discussion concerning future of D2 hockey which bought up a few thoughts.
                        2. What St. A's players are upset about going D3. The only sport we are probable talking about is D2 basketball which has a long history in the D2 schools. I bet the St. A's hockey team would be very happy to go D3 and with there fine athletic facilities could turn the program into the St.Norbert of the East. 50 miles from Boston in a city with an AHL team is not a bad drawing card.
                        I have two friends from High School, a women's Basketball player and a Football player, who have both said that they're totally against the move to DIII. Based off some of the posts of theirs that I've seen online, this seems to be the opinion of pretty much all the athletes. I can't speak for the hockey team. I know one guy who was formerly a player, but he transferred out so I don't know if he really cares.

                        SNHU could play in the big arena, and MAYBE if they installed some way of closing off the upper bowl it wouldn't be terrible. There were actually a surprising number of Penmen fans in Tempe when they played ASU at the beginning of the year. Presumably these were mostly online students? Who knows? But ya it would take a lot to build a strong fan base in a big arena like that. SNHU does more advertising than most for-profit schools, so its not out of the realm of possibility that they would want a DI sport to get greater exposure for their brand, but I still see it as unlikely. Even if one or two teams from the NE-10 moved up or down, it would still leave 3 or 4 with nowhere to go. They're not all going to move down to DIII just because of hockey, and I just don't see Stonehill or Assumption as wanting to move up.
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                        • #27
                          Re: State of D-II Hockey

                          Originally posted by SNHUPenman View Post
                          I believe I had heard before that when a conference has enough members playing a sport they have to sponsor it based on NCAA regulations. Let's say (whether or not possible) the remaining 4 teams in the NE-10 move up...does that mean Bentley/AIC get sucked into a D1 version of NE-10 hockey? Would Merrimack be forced from HEA- they have considered moving up in all sports- or would they just join the AHA.
                          The NCAA has absolutely no control over how conferences are setup. The NCAA set requirements for things like AQs, but they cannot dictate what a conference can or cannot do with who they choose as members.

                          Now, conferences themselves have rules, and some conferences have rules dictating if enough members play a sport, then they have to play that sport within their conference. That's why the Big 10 got created for hockey when Penn State joined the fray, forcing those WCHA/CCHA Big 10 schools to leave their old conferences and move to the Big 10. But, the NCAA does not control that.
                          Last edited by Russell Jaslow; 04-14-2016, 12:48 PM.
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                          • #28
                            Re: State of D-II Hockey

                            Speaking of DII, can somebody explain how things worked back in the 90's and before, before they got rid of the DII National Championship? I looked at Hockeydb.com to try and find some answers, and it seems that even when DII had a championship, teams played together with DIII teams in the same conferences during the regular season. Also there seem to be a fair number of teams (Plattsburg, Bemidji, Mankato, RIT etc.) who at various points played in both championships. So can somebody give me a summary of the history of both the DII and DIII National Championships? From what I found the DII one was held from 1978-84 and again from 1993-99 and the DIII one was held starting in 1984. But I still have a lot of questions. What were the tournaments formats, and how did the regular season work? What separation was there, if any, between the two divisions? Did games between the divisions count towards the rankings/tournament selection process? Were DII schools allowed to offer scholarships? I'm sorry for all the questions, but I love learning the history of the sport and info on DII/DIII is relatively hard to come by when compared to DI.
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                            • #29
                              Re: State of D-II Hockey

                              All I can pass along is UAH's story.

                              We went NCAA in 1985-86 and went to Division II, which UAH was (and still is) across the board. After two years, the NCAA stopped offering a Division II title, so UAH moved up to Division I as an independent for five seasons (61-81-6). When a D-II title was offered again for 1992-93, we stopped playing up. In six seasons, we finished second to Bemidji State twice and beat them the other two times. In 1998, the NCAA killed the D-II championship again, and we moved back up, where we've been ever since. UAH has never been a non-scholarship program for any sport.

                              We did play D-III schools when we were at the D-II level, but we always offered scholarships. We offer more scholarships now that we're in Division I, but that may be more "commitment to the program" than what we could allot.

                              Our entire tenure in D-II was as an independent, and D-II wasn't very full the second time around. I'm not sure how teams were selected for postseason play — the 1998 title happened my freshman year.

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                              • #30
                                Re: State of D-II Hockey

                                Originally posted by gfmorris View Post
                                All I can pass along is UAH's story.

                                We went NCAA in 1985-86 and went to Division II, which UAH was (and still is) across the board. After two years, the NCAA stopped offering a Division II title, so UAH moved up to Division I as an independent for five seasons (61-81-6). When a D-II title was offered again for 1992-93, we stopped playing up. In six seasons, we finished second to Bemidji State twice and beat them the other two times. In 1998, the NCAA killed the D-II championship again, and we moved back up, where we've been ever since. UAH has never been a non-scholarship program for any sport.

                                We did play D-III schools when we were at the D-II level, but we always offered scholarships. We offer more scholarships now that we're in Division I, but that may be more "commitment to the program" than what we could allot.

                                Our entire tenure in D-II was as an independent, and D-II wasn't very full the second time around. I'm not sure how teams were selected for postseason play — the 1998 title happened my freshman year.

                                GFM
                                Thank for the info! That's interesting about the scholarships. I was under the impression that the 6 current DII schools weren't allowed to offer scholarships as a condition of playing most of their games against DIII schools, but if that wasn't always the case I wonder when it was changed. It also makes me wonder how DII schools didn't dominate when they played DIII schools back in the day if they were offering scholarships while the DIII schools weren't. I've found old Bemidji, UAH, St. A's and St. Mikes schedules (most schools have these archives on their athletic sites) and based off their records, it seems like DII and DIII schools were pretty comparable. But ya, i'm curious as to what the selection process was for both Divisions. Based off those DII schedules I mentioned, it looks like DII schools only played a handful of teams in their division during the season. Most of their games were against DIII opponents.
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