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Thread: State of D-II Hockey

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    State of D-II Hockey

    Forgive me if this is an old topic, but a cursory search didn't yield much.

    There are a smattering of D-II schools still playing hockey:

    • St. Anselm (NEHC)
    • St. Michaels (NEHC)
    • Southern New Hampshire (NE 10)
    • Assumption (NE 10)
    • Stonehill (NE 10)
    • Franklin Pierce (NE 10)


    Am I missing anyone? https://board.uscho.com/showthread.ph...DII-DIII-Teams

    All of them, oddly enough, are also in the Northeast 10 athletic conference together in all other sports, but the kicker here is that they're all D-II schools playing D-III schedules. No NCAA post-season for these guys (especially when everyone has the mumps).

    Now, evidently St. A is going a different direction, but aside from that*... what gives? It seems like there's not much to play for at "D-II" other than whatever familiarity everyone has with their regular D-III opponents that they have on their schedules. The only hang-up I could think of would be the NCAA's moratorium on playing up a division in any given sport, but I had thought that there were exceptions to situations where there isn't a championship (like how there is no D-II championship).

    So what is it, exactly, that stops the NE 10 schools from jumping up to D-I to join their NE 10 conference mates Bentley and American Int'l? (I assume Merrimack stays where they are)

    * Also, is this definitely still going on? Any word on if the NCAA will approve it?
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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
    Forgive me if this is an old topic, but a cursory search didn't yield much.

    There are a smattering of D-II schools still playing hockey:

    • St. Anselm (NEHC)
    • St. Michaels (NEHC)
    • Southern New Hampshire (NE 10)
    • Assumption (NE 10)
    • Stonehill (NE 10)
    • Franklin Pierce (NE 10)


    Am I missing anyone? https://board.uscho.com/showthread.ph...DII-DIII-Teams

    All of them, oddly enough, are also in the Northeast 10 athletic conference together in all other sports, but the kicker here is that they're all D-II schools playing D-III schedules. No NCAA post-season for these guys (especially when everyone has the mumps).

    Now, evidently St. A is going a different direction, but aside from that*... what gives? It seems like there's not much to play for at "D-II" other than whatever familiarity everyone has with their regular D-III opponents that they have on their schedules. The only hang-up I could think of would be the NCAA's moratorium on playing up a division in any given sport, but I had thought that there were exceptions to situations where there isn't a championship (like how there is no D-II championship).

    So what is it, exactly, that stops the NE 10 schools from jumping up to D-I to join their NE 10 conference mates Bentley and American Int'l? (I assume Merrimack stays where they are)

    * Also, is this definitely still going on? Any word on if the NCAA will approve it?
    No official word on the Saint A's move...there was a LOT of backlash on campus about this as it was done quite secretly by the President. They have since changed AD's twice I want to say. The reasoning as to why they want to move down is to be able to use their "scholarship" monies in any fashion they show choose.

    I have heard only rumors that Saint Mike's is thinking the same.

    I believe I had heard before that when a conference has enough members playing a sport they have to sponsor it based on NCAA regulations. Let's say (whether or not possible) the remaining 4 teams in the NE-10 move up...does that mean Bentley/AIC get sucked into a D1 version of NE-10 hockey? Would Merrimack be forced from HEA- they have considered moving up in all sports- or would they just join the AHA.

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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    I just want to play D1 hockey LOL...we have access to the Verizon Wireless Arena, which will be renamed the SNHU Arena on September 1. We have the building...we have the money. We just need to get up there.

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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by SNHUPenman View Post
    I believe I had heard before that when a conference has enough members playing a sport they have to sponsor it based on NCAA regulations. Let's say (whether or not possible) the remaining 4 teams in the NE-10 move up...does that mean Bentley/AIC get sucked into a D1 version of NE-10 hockey? Would Merrimack be forced from HEA- they have considered moving up in all sports- or would they just join the AHA.
    I hadn't heard of that rule before.

    It's a little odd to think of someone moving conferences because of hockey (we all know what sports make the decisions for most schools, and it isn't hockey), but I have to imagine that Merrimack makes enough money from HEA that if they're already thinking of switching conferences, they won't be "forced" into an NE-10 conference.

    Then again, I'm not an AD administrator, so...
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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
    I hadn't heard of that rule before.

    It's a little odd to think of someone moving conferences because of hockey (we all know what sports make the decisions for most schools, and it isn't hockey), but I have to imagine that Merrimack makes enough money from HEA that if they're already thinking of switching conferences, they won't be "forced" into an NE-10 conference.

    Then again, I'm not an AD administrator, so...
    I wouldn't think Merrimack would ever leave HEA. That is their only advantage in recruiting, their rink is terrible and tiny. And maybe the aspect of the rule I am thinking of is when an existing conference adds sponsorship of a sport because it's members have enough to field their own competitions...where the need for an associate membership would then be un-necessary.

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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    Ya I mean I think the simple answer is that these schools just want to play hockey. Enough said. Moving up to Division I sounds logical, but it would be a financial commitment they don't want to deal with. All six schools voluntarily observe DIII rules in regards to scholarships (in that they don't offer them). If it were up to them I think they would all play down to DIII and be able to participate in the post-season, but the NCAA won't allow it. Holy Cross women's hockey (a DI school playing a DIII schedule) is in a similar boat. It just boils down to the schools not wanting the added expense of DI hockey. As I mentioned in the MIA DII/DIII teams thread, Post University is apparently planning to join the DII ranks, but who knows if they will. They played a mostly club schedule this year and did pretty poor at that. It will be interesting to see what Saint A's ultimately decides to do, and whether or not that will shake things up a bit. If Post does come in, things will probably just continue as is.
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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckeye22 View Post
    Ya I mean I think the simple answer is that these schools just want to play hockey. Enough said. Moving up to Division I sounds logical, but it would be a financial commitment they don't want to deal with. All six schools voluntarily observe DIII rules in regards to scholarships (in that they don't offer them). If it were up to them I think they would all play down to DIII and be able to participate in the post-season, but the NCAA won't allow it. Holy Cross women's hockey (a DI school playing a DIII schedule) is in a similar boat. It just boils down to the schools not wanting the added expense of DI hockey. As I mentioned in the MIA DII/DIII teams thread, Post University is apparently planning to join the DII ranks, but who knows if they will. They played a mostly club schedule this year and did pretty poor at that. It will be interesting to see what Saint A's ultimately decides to do, and whether or not that will shake things up a bit. If Post does come in, things will probably just continue as is.
    It would seem that if Saint Anselm moves down, leaving 5 NE-10 programs, there would be some sort of outcome for the remaining schools. 5 teams is not a conference...heck right now, it really is only a 4 team conference. Saint Anselm & Saint Michael's play only 5 games total against the NE-10 teams. While the rest play each other 3 times. SNHU may play a D3 schedule...but it is about half of the games...

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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckeye22 View Post
    Moving up to Division I sounds logical, but it would be a financial commitment they don't want to deal with. All six schools voluntarily observe DIII rules in regards to scholarships (in that they don't offer them). If it were up to them I think they would all play down to DIII and be able to participate in the post-season, but the NCAA won't allow it. Holy Cross women's hockey (a DI school playing a DIII schedule) is in a similar boat.
    I don't think you HAVE to offer scholarships if you play D-I, do you? At the very least, I know that AHA is fairly accommodating when it comes to keeping costs down (aside from the trip out to see Air Force), and it's mostly a league that schools can bus to, so I have doubts that travel costs are big deal (again, outside of going to CO to see Air Force).

    I can be told that I'm wrong about the costs and scholarships, it just seems that at first glance there's a possible answer to the obvious objections. Especially with so many opponents in NE/NY.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
    Forgive me if this is an old topic, but a cursory search didn't yield much.

    There are a smattering of D-II schools still playing hockey:

    • St. Anselm (NEHC)
    • St. Michaels (NEHC)
    • Southern New Hampshire (NE 10)
    • Assumption (NE 10)
    • Stonehill (NE 10)
    • Franklin Pierce (NE 10)


    Am I missing anyone? https://board.uscho.com/showthread.ph...DII-DIII-Teams

    All of them, oddly enough, are also in the Northeast 10 athletic conference together in all other sports, but the kicker here is that they're all D-II schools playing D-III schedules. No NCAA post-season for these guys (especially when everyone has the mumps).

    Now, evidently St. A is going a different direction, but aside from that*... what gives? It seems like there's not much to play for at "D-II" other than whatever familiarity everyone has with their regular D-III opponents that they have on their schedules. The only hang-up I could think of would be the NCAA's moratorium on playing up a division in any given sport, but I had thought that there were exceptions to situations where there isn't a championship (like how there is no D-II championship).

    So what is it, exactly, that stops the NE 10 schools from jumping up to D-I to join their NE 10 conference mates Bentley and American Int'l? (I assume Merrimack stays where they are)

    * Also, is this definitely still going on? Any word on if the NCAA will approve it?
    Not sure about St. Anselm - this thread is the first I'd heard about them possibly backing out of the planned transition.

    As for the rest: DIII is a cost-saving measure. No scholarships, less expectation for financial support, etc. and more reasonable travel arrangements.

    Now, DIII hockey schools have proposed several times to allow for them to "play down" and count. The DIII hockey schools want it. Some people did the math, and Plattsburgh's SOS would have gone up enough of Norwich's games against DII opponents had counted that they would have been in the tournament instead of UWSP. Having the DII schools eligible for DIII would HELP the DIII Hockey Schools, which is why many of the top DIII programs have sponsored these proposals on the past. The problem is, you are talking about 78-ish hockey-playing schools asking the 470-something DIII schools to approve an exception to a rule that could be viewed as a "can of worms" to those playing other sports but without a hockey program... One need not have a PhD in Mathematics to see the problem there. The other challenge is that DIII schools have financial oversight by the NCAA across the entire Athletics Department and Financial Aid office... For a DII school with 1 or 2 DIII programs, that level of oversight is may not be possible.

    Bottom line, nobody knows of this will ever be resolved. St A first flirted with DI in the AHA, but decided that DIII resolved the issue more reasonably. And I would say that were the most likely of the 6 to go DI. On that point: yes, DIIs are welcome to go DI because There is no DII championship. DIIIs who want to make that jump are SOL... Permanently.

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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    The rule is no more playups, but if D-II does not offer a championship in a sport, a D-II member may declare for the D-I championship. This declaration is good for 2 years.

    Thus, the NE-10 can declare for the D-I championship and OOC games v D-I teams would count for both schools. Plus 6 teams makes a conference for D-I purposes.

    They'd be seed #16 and cannon fodder for the #1 seed. But they'd have a post season that counts.

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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    Does it even have to be a six-team league? The CHA kept their AQ as they dwindled first to five teams and then four.

    GFM <— would like to note that UAH was hardly cannon fodder for NtD in 2007 or MU in 2010...
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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by CARDS_rule_the_Burgh View Post
    As for the rest: DIII is a cost-saving measure. No scholarships, less expectation for financial support, etc. and more reasonable travel arrangements.
    To that...

    Quote Originally Posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
    I don't think you HAVE to offer scholarships if you play D-I, do you? At the very least, I know that AHA is fairly accommodating when it comes to keeping costs down (aside from the trip out to see Air Force), and it's mostly a league that schools can bus to, so I have doubts that travel costs are big deal (again, outside of going to CO to see Air Force).

    I can be told that I'm wrong about the costs and scholarships, it just seems that at first glance there's a possible answer to the obvious objections. Especially with so many opponents in NE/NY.
    Perhaps worth elaborating: those travel concerns effectively evaporate if there's ever a scenario where the D-II upstarts join up with AIC and Bentley and avoid the AHA's requirements to travel to Pittsburgh, CO, etc. Even if they just joined AHA (which would put their numbers all the way up to 17), that'd be a large enough conference that you'd be able to have divisions and reduce how often you have to travel far.
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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    The rule is no more playups, but if D-II does not offer a championship in a sport, a D-II member may declare for the D-I championship. This declaration is good for 2 years.

    Thus, the NE-10 can declare for the D-I championship and OOC games v D-I teams would count for both schools. Plus 6 teams makes a conference for D-I purposes.

    They'd be seed #16 and cannon fodder for the #1 seed. But they'd have a post season that counts.
    If the D2 schools play up in DI they'd be allowed to offer up to 13.5 scholarsips (teams break them up into partials btwn the players) vs. 11 that Atlantic Hockey Maintains. If they play up at DI and offer the full amount of allowed scholarships, plus have a meaningful postseason to play for, they could quickly become solid programs and not just cannon fodder for top ranked teams.

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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    My solution if Post joins and St. A's stays would be to have the NE-10 schools stop playing DIII schools all together. Have each of the 7 DII schools play each other 4 times each (twice at home and twice on the road). Thats a 24 game schedule right there. Throw in an exhibition game against a CIS school or the US U-18s plus the NE-10 tournament (depending on how they formatted it) and you'd have a 25-30 game schedule. Sure, playing the same teams every year might get repetitive, but at least it would give their seasons more meaning, rather than the weird quasi-exhibition schedules they play now. Also they would be able to offer scholarships again (if they wanted to). Never going to happen but I think it would be best.

    As for moving up to DI and having to offer scholarships, you're right. They wouldn't have to. The Ivys, the Service Academies, Union and RIT don't offer scholarships for hockey (The Ivys voluntarily, the Service Academies because tuition is free anyway and RIT and Union because they're DIII schools which weren't grandfathered in with the other DIII schools). I'm not an expert on how all the finances work by any means, but I imagine there has to be other added costs in addition to just scholarships. Otherwise, wouldn't everyone just go DI in every sport? With the exception of St. A's, none of them have DI quality facilities (granted neither do Bentley, Sacred Heart or AIC) either, so finding OOC teams that would want to travel to them would probably be tough too.
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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by CARDS_rule_the_Burgh View Post
    Not sure about St. Anselm - this thread is the first I'd heard about them possibly backing out of the planned transition.

    As for the rest: DIII is a cost-saving measure. No scholarships, less expectation for financial support, etc. and more reasonable travel arrangements.

    Now, DIII hockey schools have proposed several times to allow for them to "play down" and count. The DIII hockey schools want it. Some people did the math, and Plattsburgh's SOS would have gone up enough of Norwich's games against DII opponents had counted that they would have been in the tournament instead of UWSP. Having the DII schools eligible for DIII would HELP the DIII Hockey Schools, which is why many of the top DIII programs have sponsored these proposals on the past. The problem is, you are talking about 78-ish hockey-playing schools asking the 470-something DIII schools to approve an exception to a rule that could be viewed as a "can of worms" to those playing other sports but without a hockey program... One need not have a PhD in Mathematics to see the problem there. The other challenge is that DIII schools have financial oversight by the NCAA across the entire Athletics Department and Financial Aid office... For a DII school with 1 or 2 DIII programs, that level of oversight is may not be possible.

    Bottom line, nobody knows of this will ever be resolved. St A first flirted with DI in the AHA, but decided that DIII resolved the issue more reasonably. And I would say that were the most likely of the 6 to go DI. On that point: yes, DIIs are welcome to go DI because There is no DII championship. DIIIs who want to make that jump are SOL... Permanently.

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    Applications for Exploratory Membership and Mentor Assignment. The committee
    accepted exploratory applications from the following institutions:
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    d. Saint Anselm’s College (New Hampshire) Exploring reclassification from Division II.

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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by PrezdeJohnson09 View Post
    So should they fully commit next year it would be 2020-21 before Saint Anselm is fully Division III.
    True, shy of any waivers.

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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    I'm assuming the 2020-21 date would be the point at which Saint Anselm would be able to compete in the NCAA postseason, but would their regular season games against DIII schools before that count? I know their current NEHC games count towards the league standings, but they don't count towards the national DIII standings. Would they be able to play in the NEHC hockey tournament right away? I know teams moving up a division in other sports generally can't take part in the national or conference postseason during the transitional period, but their games during the regular season do count towards both the conference and national standings. I don't know the rules for teams moving down though.
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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    The rule is no more playups, but if D-II does not offer a championship in a sport, a D-II member may declare for the D-I championship. This declaration is good for 2 years.

    Thus, the NE-10 can declare for the D-I championship and OOC games v D-I teams would count for both schools. Plus 6 teams makes a conference for D-I purposes.

    They'd be seed #16 and cannon fodder for the #1 seed. But they'd have a post season that counts.
    Thanks for clarifying this. I mentioned on the D-I board that I thought all play ups were no longer allowed, but the article I cited described RIT's attempt to promote their women's team to D-I and I forgot that RIT is D-III in all other sports.

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    Re: State of D-II Hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckeye22 View Post
    My solution if Post joins and St. A's stays would be to have the NE-10 schools stop playing DIII schools all together. Have each of the 7 DII schools play each other 4 times each (twice at home and twice on the road). Thats a 24 game schedule right there. Throw in an exhibition game against a CIS school or the US U-18s plus the NE-10 tournament (depending on how they formatted it) and you'd have a 25-30 game schedule. Sure, playing the same teams every year might get repetitive, but at least it would give their seasons more meaning, rather than the weird quasi-exhibition schedules they play now. Also they would be able to offer scholarships again (if they wanted to). Never going to happen but I think it would be best.

    As for moving up to DI and having to offer scholarships, you're right. They wouldn't have to. The Ivys, the Service Academies, Union and RIT don't offer scholarships for hockey (The Ivys voluntarily, the Service Academies because tuition is free anyway and RIT and Union because they're DIII schools which weren't grandfathered in with the other DIII schools). I'm not an expert on how all the finances work by any means, but I imagine there has to be other added costs in addition to just scholarships. Otherwise, wouldn't everyone just go DI in every sport? With the exception of St. A's, none of them have DI quality facilities (granted neither do Bentley, Sacred Heart or AIC) either, so finding OOC teams that would want to travel to them would probably be tough too.
    I cannot speak to the other DII schools, however, SNHU could play in the big rink in downtown Manchester. That is available to them.

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