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Thread: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

  1. #81
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    That's the part that makes me feel like the North Of The Wall storyline feels a little bit Dorned right now.

    In the span of a few minutes of screen time, Bran breaks a super critical rule that someone should have told him about, the entire ****ing White Walker/wight (Wight Walker?) army shows up and all but two characters are dead with really no logical reason to expect them to survive (beyond tv magic and Bran still "having a story to tell").

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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    Quote Originally Posted by state of hockey View Post
    For some reason I can't wrap my head around that ending. Sad nonetheless, though.
    Spoiler:

    The gimmick was ripped off from A Prayer for Owen Meany, but John Updike was hot Eastern Bias garbage so good for them. In fact I'm sure Updike ripped it off from someone talented.

    In time travel terms: Future Hodor's trance state connects him to Past Hodor for just long enough that at the crisis, when all that matters for him to hold the door, that encirclement of his Being is participated in by Past Hodor, turning him into an instrument to accomplish that single purpose for the rest of his life.

    Which, given what a pathetic loser Bran is, is a waste of a perfectly good life, even if it's a prophetic commentary on the terrible waste of human potential in a unequal economic and political order. Come and see the violence inherent in the system!

    I loved the play. That is exactly how it would go down, too, complete with fart jokes. I am impatient for The Girl to figure out she's not cut out for this faceless silliness. Tell them "not today." You be you, girl.
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    Quote Originally Posted by ticapnews View Post
    You'd think Father Merrin would have enough sense to tell the kid not to let the Night King touch him.
    Yeah, we've got two choices. Either (1) he did tell him and Bran is even more of a useless loser* than we thought, or (2) he didn't tell him, in which case, really? You had one job.

    * Jesus, what a family. No wonder none of the other northern families are helping them out. Ramsey may be insane, but at least he's competent. Every member of the Starks has so far failed in everything they have attempted, and cost thousands of their loved ones, loyalists, and mercenaries their dignity, limbs and/or lives. They're like the Bushes of Winterfell. Snuff out the line, already, they've done enough damage.
    Last edited by Kepler; 05-23-2016 at 08:29 AM.
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    Based on Brynden Rivers reaction to Bran thinking Ned heard him in the Tower of Joy vision, saying that it isn't possible. I took it to mean that Brynden didn't think that even the Night's King could interact with Bran in his visions. He didn't know. Once Bran woke everyone up screaming, and he said that the Nights King saw him. Brynden's intuition, and the fact that he's kind of an "all-knowing" being. He immediately realized what happened. He didn't warn Bran, because he didn't think it was possible. As soon as it happened, he knew what the significance was.
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    I'll attempt to answer SoH's questions about how the Hodor scene worked. I think I have come up with an explanation that works.

    Bran is currently greenseeing, the past in the courtyard at Winterfell. Since he is in that state, he cannot warg into Hodor, like he has in the past. But, while in the past, he was able to use his powers transport Hodor's consciousness, from when he was young (you can see, that Young Wyllis sees Bran, right before he passes out), to Hodor in the past. That is why we see Young Wyllis's eyes turn white, like he's warging, because he essentially is. From his young self, into the future, into his older body. So, Hodor in the cave is not Bran warging into him, that is Hodor doing these things at his own volition, but he's doing it as Young Wyllis. Since Hodor dies, Young Wyllis is stuck in that state for the rest of his days, only knowing that he is "Hold the Door" or "Hodor". That is the last thing in his mind when Hodor is killed, and it stays with Hodor for his whole life. Bran is greenseeing the whole time, and is not warging into Hodor at all during that scene.
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    I don't know if this goes in the Gear Grinding thread or here, but I need to rant for a bit.

    A friend of mine complained on Facebook last night about having the episode "ruined" by other people posting about it on FB after it had already aired. Her complaint was that since not everyone watches it live, people shouldn't post about it that night. I just wanted to ask... why the f are you on social media immediately after a show that has massive viewership and is one of the most talked about? She admitted she started watching it right after the TB/Pitt game ended but she was perusing facebook during the time.

    ****, people are dumb.

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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    Quote Originally Posted by cF[Authentic] View Post
    I don't know if this goes in the Gear Grinding thread or here, but I need to rant for a bit.

    A friend of mine complained on Facebook last night about having the episode "ruined" by other people posting about it on FB after it had already aired. Her complaint was that since not everyone watches it live, people shouldn't post about it that night. I just wanted to ask... why the f are you on social media immediately after a show that has massive viewership and is one of the most talked about? She admitted she started watching it right after the TB/Pitt game ended but she was perusing facebook during the time.

    ****, people are dumb.
    Yep. When I don't watch right away, I avoid any place that I might see spoilers. It really isn't that tough.
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    Quote Originally Posted by cF[Authentic] View Post
    I don't know if this goes in the Gear Grinding thread or here, but I need to rant for a bit.

    A friend of mine complained on Facebook last night about having the episode "ruined" by other people posting about it on FB after it had already aired. Her complaint was that since not everyone watches it live, people shouldn't post about it that night. I just wanted to ask... why the f are you on social media immediately after a show that has massive viewership and is one of the most talked about? She admitted she started watching it right after the TB/Pitt game ended but she was perusing facebook during the time.

    ****, people are dumb.
    Rosebud is a sled.

    I don't have any sympathy for those who see spoilers after something has already aired. Yesterday's GoT was different though, since someone in Europe released the show early so it was available all day Sunday if you wanted to pirate it. By mid-afternoon it was available on the torrent site I use. Fortunately I didn't see it until after the fact, but someone began marketing "Hold the Door" t-shirts hours before the episode aired in the United States. If I had the ending spoiled because of pirates or some stupid marketing campaign I'd be furious. But again, that's BEFORE the show officially aired. Once it has aired, it is fair game. If you don't want spoilers, get off the Internet.

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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    Quote Originally Posted by ticapnews View Post
    Once it has aired, it is fair game. If you don't want spoilers, get off the Internet.
    Nobody watches things when they air anymore. Give people a week after airing. Don't be that guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Nobody watches things when they air anymore. Give people a week after airing. Don't be that guy.
    It's not like I go out of my way to spoil things. I'm not the guy driving past Waldenbooks at midnight screaming "Snape kills Dumbledore!" at people who just got the Harry Potter book. But a lot of people like to talk about TV shows as soon as they air. If you are in the minority who does the time-shifting binge watching then stay off the Internet. I used to work nights so pretty much all my shows were DVR only. If I didn't want to be spoiled I stayed offline until I had watched.

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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    Quote Originally Posted by ticapnews View Post
    It's not like I go out of my way to spoil things. I'm not the guy driving past Waldenbooks at midnight screaming "Snape kills Dumbledore!" at people who just got the Harry Potter book. But a lot of people like to talk about TV shows as soon as they air. If you are in the minority who does the time-shifting binge watching then stay off the Internet. I used to work nights so pretty much all my shows were DVR only. If I didn't want to be spoiled I stayed offline until I had watched.
    I just don't see it that way. Some shows I am able to watch the instant they air but most I have to wait until the weekend because, you know, job, kids, life.

    I'm not asking for a month, but a week seems like a fair compromise. Having one spoilers and one no spoilers for a week TV thread seems like an even better idea. The problem with staying off the spoilers thread for your week is in the interim another show has aired you haven't seen yet. The NSFAW thread solves that issue by introducing a lag.

    I do appreciate your side of this; I think some kind of compromise is reasonable and polite.
    Last edited by Kepler; 05-23-2016 at 07:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigblue_dl View Post
    I'll attempt to answer SoH's questions about how the Hodor scene worked. I think I have come up with an explanation that works.

    Bran is currently greenseeing, the past in the courtyard at Winterfell. Since he is in that state, he cannot warg into Hodor, like he has in the past. But, while in the past, he was able to use his powers transport Hodor's consciousness, from when he was young (you can see, that Young Wyllis sees Bran, right before he passes out), to Hodor in the past. That is why we see Young Wyllis's eyes turn white, like he's warging, because he essentially is. From his young self, into the future, into his older body. So, Hodor in the cave is not Bran warging into him, that is Hodor doing these things at his own volition, but he's doing it as Young Wyllis. Since Hodor dies, Young Wyllis is stuck in that state for the rest of his days, only knowing that he is "Hold the Door" or "Hodor". That is the last thing in his mind when Hodor is killed, and it stays with Hodor for his whole life. Bran is greenseeing the whole time, and is not warging into Hodor at all during that scene.
    That clears it up a bit. With how I understood "warging" it just didn't make sense. Now of course they have that whole time isn't a strait line thing going on, which was hinted at when Ned heard him. Hodor has been that way the whole show, which leads me to believe that all of this has already happened. Grrrrrr. This is the stuff that made LOST go off the rails for me.

    Don't get me wrong, I understand it. I just don't find it terribly entertaining.

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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    soh, the director on Sunday's episode worked on LOST.
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    Meh. The producers said this entire story came straight from the mouth of GRRM.
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    I mixed up John Updike and John Irving below, but they both suck the New York Times Magazine's ancient, hairy nutsack in the same way, so no biggie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bronconick View Post
    soh, the director on Sunday's episode worked on LOST.
    What a coincidence! He didn't come up with the idea though. He's just shown in the past (snicker) that he is good at showing time jumps on the tv screen.

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    Meh. The producers said this entire story came straight from the mouth of GRRM.
    Exactly. Can't blame D&D for that.

    It didn't ruin the show for me. I just find it annoying. Essentially Bran has never actually made a decision. It is all laid out for him. Some people are speculating that he is actually Brandon the Builder, founder of the Starks and builder of the wall.

    I don't think they'll go that route though, seems too obvious and neat and tidy.

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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    Quote Originally Posted by state of hockey View Post
    Essentially Bran has never actually made a decision. It is all laid out for him.
    Well, he's made plenty of decisions. He made Hodor, Hodor. The Three-eyed Raven had to have known that all of this was going to take place. He has essentially been written as someone who sees all that has happened and all that will happen. He had to know that Bran was going to **** up and had to know that the Night King was going to come to the tree. Could he have told Bran about the Night King being able to see him? Possibly.

    So he must have let Bran do all of this. Bran hasn't had a whole lot of control over his destiny since he started seeing the three-eyed raven. He's made decisions but he may have been put into those situations by others and, more specifically, by the raven.
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    Well, he's made plenty of decisions. He made Hodor, Hodor. The Three-eyed Raven had to have known that all of this was going to take place. He has essentially been written as someone who sees all that has happened and all that will happen. He had to know that Bran was going to **** up and had to know that the Night King was going to come to the tree. Could he have told Bran about the Night King being able to see him? Possibly.

    So he must have let Bran do all of this. Bran hasn't had a whole lot of control over his destiny since he started seeing the three-eyed raven. He's made decisions but he may have been put into those situations by others and, more specifically, by the raven.
    I disagree with some of this. The 3 Eyed Raven is Brynden Rivers, he's only been there for about 300 years. This means that the maximum amount of time that he's been able to "greensee" is also maxed out at 300 years, if you go by the rule of a 1 to 1 time conversion, which it seems to be based on what we've seen with Bran. We also know that he does sleep, he was sleeping when Bran met the Nights King. So, let say he sleeps 1/3 of his time, we're down to 200 years. Add into this that he can only see 1 location at a time, he's probably seen many events many times from various locations and viewpoints. Lastly he's got 1000's upon 1000's of years of history and future to potentially see. All of this added up makes it very possible that he never saw this coming while greenseeing.

    Also, a mistake I made earlier. The first white walker created by the Children is not the Nights King. The legend of the Nights King states that he was a Stark and the 13th Commander of The Nights Watch. He fell in love with a white walker woman, and married her, and named themselves the Nights King and Queen. So, the current Nights King that Bran saw may very well still be that Nights King from legend, but the Nights King from legend is not the white walker we are shown being created. This little fact slipped my mind and I think I referred to him as the Nights King when he is not.
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    Also, and this may sound messed up, Bran cannot go back and change the past, in a sense that we will see events change now. He may have shaped some events from history, but now that they've happened, they're not changing. We see this with Hodor, he was Hodor the whole time, he was Wyllis the whole series and then his past was changed and he became Hodor after Bran messed with him.

    We also have no idea to what extent can Bran interact with the past. We know he can communicate, be seen, and in the case of the Nights King, be touched (but the Nights King may be special in that way). We have no idea if he can actually go back and do things, and be someone different in history, like Bran the Builder. It is possible, but not shown yet. I think a more plausible explanation will be that he is able to communicate with some people (probably those that follow the old gods) and maybe make himself shown to them too, or a subset of that group. What I'm trying to say is, I think he has the power to influence history through other people, but not to change history himself.
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    The time travel thing just annoys me so much, because I absolutely hate it as a plot device, and it changes my perception of the weirwood net into something that just isn't as interesting to me. (Okay, this is going to be more of a rant on how it impacts the books if this element plays out there as it did in the show)

    In hindsight maybe this was inevitable that ideas could be warged across time and space... Jojen and Bran both have had prophetic (if more symbolic) dreams for quite a while. Bran's dreams are probably more of the "3ER is talking to me from a great distance" and have no time travel (he basically dreams of Ned's death, as does Rickon, before they know about it, but that's before the raven arrives with the news, not before it actually happens). More significantly, Jojen claims to know how he's going to die, and foresees things like the Ironborn taking Winterfell.

    But that's not quite how I had thought the weirwood net (namely Bran's visions from ADWD) were presented. The way that was presented made it seem more like the pensieve in Harry Potter, or the neural network in Avatar: the weirwoods were like this database of memories from the past (as Bran does when starts seeing some visions), and are able to produce a sort of hivemind where you could communicate from one weirwood to another (like when Bran whispers to Theon). As such, the memories/history are just like rewatching an .mp4 file through trees that also function as a sort of phone system.

    The idea that you are ACTUALLY being taken back to that event in history does a few things. First, it means you aren't seeing a memory of Tower of Joy, you are actually at the Tower of Joy. This raises interesting questions, like "why are Bran and 3ER watching TOJ alone? Is this the only time they show up to watch it? Does no one else with this power ever visit here? Why aren't there, at the least, one or two other copies of Bran from when he might want to revisit this to learn more, or of 3ER from any time he might have watched this before?". I mean, its not like you can't have multiple beings in a "memory" at the same time, otherwise I have no earthly idea what was going on with the Nights King.

    Second, it means that we now expose ourselves to the singular reason I hate time travel: paradoxes. If you can travel back in time (or even send an idea back in time), why hasn't Future Bran decided to do what 3ER completely forgot to do and warn his past self about "oh, hey, try not to spelunking by yourself, or at least avoid White Walkers if you do"? It's Magic TV Logic and/or TV Characters Behaving Like Idiots at its worst if you don't explore this. Granted, the show (and books?) might very well subvert this. The DeLorean can't return from the 1800s if it's out of fuel, maybe there's something that stops Bran from being able to use this power again. That'd be fine, but then it just makes the time travel into a one time thing, which sort of makes the weirwoods into a giant red herring and/or shaggy dog story. Dumb.

    Really, the only way out of that pickle (no one uses time travel, even though its totally still an option) is the Red Vs. Blue S3 approach: you never actually change anything through time travel, you just either end up causing the events that transpired or you have no impact whatsoever. Which is probably the best way to deal with the time travel paradox, but probably is better suited for a comedy than whatever we're trying to accomplish here.

    TL;DR version: Time travel is ****ing stupid and brings up more questions than it answers.
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