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  • #91
    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

    Originally posted by ticapnews View Post
    It's not like I go out of my way to spoil things. I'm not the guy driving past Waldenbooks at midnight screaming "Snape kills Dumbledore!" at people who just got the Harry Potter book. But a lot of people like to talk about TV shows as soon as they air. If you are in the minority who does the time-shifting binge watching then stay off the Internet. I used to work nights so pretty much all my shows were DVR only. If I didn't want to be spoiled I stayed offline until I had watched.
    I just don't see it that way. Some shows I am able to watch the instant they air but most I have to wait until the weekend because, you know, job, kids, life.

    I'm not asking for a month, but a week seems like a fair compromise. Having one spoilers and one no spoilers for a week TV thread seems like an even better idea. The problem with staying off the spoilers thread for your week is in the interim another show has aired you haven't seen yet. The NSFAW thread solves that issue by introducing a lag.

    I do appreciate your side of this; I think some kind of compromise is reasonable and polite.
    Last edited by Kepler; 05-23-2016, 07:06 PM.
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    • #92
      Originally posted by bigblue_dl View Post
      I'll attempt to answer SoH's questions about how the Hodor scene worked. I think I have come up with an explanation that works.

      Bran is currently greenseeing, the past in the courtyard at Winterfell. Since he is in that state, he cannot warg into Hodor, like he has in the past. But, while in the past, he was able to use his powers transport Hodor's consciousness, from when he was young (you can see, that Young Wyllis sees Bran, right before he passes out), to Hodor in the past. That is why we see Young Wyllis's eyes turn white, like he's warging, because he essentially is. From his young self, into the future, into his older body. So, Hodor in the cave is not Bran warging into him, that is Hodor doing these things at his own volition, but he's doing it as Young Wyllis. Since Hodor dies, Young Wyllis is stuck in that state for the rest of his days, only knowing that he is "Hold the Door" or "Hodor". That is the last thing in his mind when Hodor is killed, and it stays with Hodor for his whole life. Bran is greenseeing the whole time, and is not warging into Hodor at all during that scene.
      That clears it up a bit. With how I understood "warging" it just didn't make sense. Now of course they have that whole time isn't a strait line thing going on, which was hinted at when Ned heard him. Hodor has been that way the whole show, which leads me to believe that all of this has already happened. Grrrrrr. This is the stuff that made LOST go off the rails for me.

      Don't get me wrong, I understand it. I just don't find it terribly entertaining.
      the state of hockey is good

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      • #93
        Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

        soh, the director on Sunday's episode worked on LOST.
        "I went over the facts in my head, and admired how much uglier the situation had just become. Over the years I've learned that ignorance is more than just bliss. It's freaking orgasmic ecstasy".- Harry Dresden, Blood Rites


        Western Michigan Bronco Hockey- 2012 Mason Cup Champions

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        • #94
          Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

          Meh. The producers said this entire story came straight from the mouth of GRRM.
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          • #95
            Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

            I mixed up John Updike and John Irving below, but they both suck the New York Times Magazine's ancient, hairy nutsack in the same way, so no biggie.
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            • #96
              Originally posted by bronconick View Post
              soh, the director on Sunday's episode worked on LOST.
              What a coincidence! He didn't come up with the idea though. He's just shown in the past (snicker) that he is good at showing time jumps on the tv screen.

              Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
              Meh. The producers said this entire story came straight from the mouth of GRRM.
              Exactly. Can't blame D&D for that.

              It didn't ruin the show for me. I just find it annoying. Essentially Bran has never actually made a decision. It is all laid out for him. Some people are speculating that he is actually Brandon the Builder, founder of the Starks and builder of the wall.

              I don't think they'll go that route though, seems too obvious and neat and tidy.
              the state of hockey is good

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              • #97
                Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

                Originally posted by state of hockey View Post
                Essentially Bran has never actually made a decision. It is all laid out for him.
                Well, he's made plenty of decisions. He made Hodor, Hodor. The Three-eyed Raven had to have known that all of this was going to take place. He has essentially been written as someone who sees all that has happened and all that will happen. He had to know that Bran was going to **** up and had to know that the Night King was going to come to the tree. Could he have told Bran about the Night King being able to see him? Possibly.

                So he must have let Bran do all of this. Bran hasn't had a whole lot of control over his destiny since he started seeing the three-eyed raven. He's made decisions but he may have been put into those situations by others and, more specifically, by the raven.
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                Originally posted by SanTropez
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                Originally posted by bigblue_dl
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                Originally posted by Kepler
                When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

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                • #98
                  Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

                  Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                  Well, he's made plenty of decisions. He made Hodor, Hodor. The Three-eyed Raven had to have known that all of this was going to take place. He has essentially been written as someone who sees all that has happened and all that will happen. He had to know that Bran was going to **** up and had to know that the Night King was going to come to the tree. Could he have told Bran about the Night King being able to see him? Possibly.

                  So he must have let Bran do all of this. Bran hasn't had a whole lot of control over his destiny since he started seeing the three-eyed raven. He's made decisions but he may have been put into those situations by others and, more specifically, by the raven.
                  I disagree with some of this. The 3 Eyed Raven is Brynden Rivers, he's only been there for about 300 years. This means that the maximum amount of time that he's been able to "greensee" is also maxed out at 300 years, if you go by the rule of a 1 to 1 time conversion, which it seems to be based on what we've seen with Bran. We also know that he does sleep, he was sleeping when Bran met the Nights King. So, let say he sleeps 1/3 of his time, we're down to 200 years. Add into this that he can only see 1 location at a time, he's probably seen many events many times from various locations and viewpoints. Lastly he's got 1000's upon 1000's of years of history and future to potentially see. All of this added up makes it very possible that he never saw this coming while greenseeing.

                  Also, a mistake I made earlier. The first white walker created by the Children is not the Nights King. The legend of the Nights King states that he was a Stark and the 13th Commander of The Nights Watch. He fell in love with a white walker woman, and married her, and named themselves the Nights King and Queen. So, the current Nights King that Bran saw may very well still be that Nights King from legend, but the Nights King from legend is not the white walker we are shown being created. This little fact slipped my mind and I think I referred to him as the Nights King when he is not.
                  Having a clear conscience just means you have a bad memory or you had a boring weekend.

                  RIP - Kirby

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                  • #99
                    Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

                    Also, and this may sound messed up, Bran cannot go back and change the past, in a sense that we will see events change now. He may have shaped some events from history, but now that they've happened, they're not changing. We see this with Hodor, he was Hodor the whole time, he was Wyllis the whole series and then his past was changed and he became Hodor after Bran messed with him.

                    We also have no idea to what extent can Bran interact with the past. We know he can communicate, be seen, and in the case of the Nights King, be touched (but the Nights King may be special in that way). We have no idea if he can actually go back and do things, and be someone different in history, like Bran the Builder. It is possible, but not shown yet. I think a more plausible explanation will be that he is able to communicate with some people (probably those that follow the old gods) and maybe make himself shown to them too, or a subset of that group. What I'm trying to say is, I think he has the power to influence history through other people, but not to change history himself.
                    Having a clear conscience just means you have a bad memory or you had a boring weekend.

                    RIP - Kirby

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                    • Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

                      The time travel thing just annoys me so much, because I absolutely hate it as a plot device, and it changes my perception of the weirwood net into something that just isn't as interesting to me. (Okay, this is going to be more of a rant on how it impacts the books if this element plays out there as it did in the show)

                      In hindsight maybe this was inevitable that ideas could be warged across time and space... Jojen and Bran both have had prophetic (if more symbolic) dreams for quite a while. Bran's dreams are probably more of the "3ER is talking to me from a great distance" and have no time travel (he basically dreams of Ned's death, as does Rickon, before they know about it, but that's before the raven arrives with the news, not before it actually happens). More significantly, Jojen claims to know how he's going to die, and foresees things like the Ironborn taking Winterfell.

                      But that's not quite how I had thought the weirwood net (namely Bran's visions from ADWD) were presented. The way that was presented made it seem more like the pensieve in Harry Potter, or the neural network in Avatar: the weirwoods were like this database of memories from the past (as Bran does when starts seeing some visions), and are able to produce a sort of hivemind where you could communicate from one weirwood to another (like when Bran whispers to Theon). As such, the memories/history are just like rewatching an .mp4 file through trees that also function as a sort of phone system.

                      The idea that you are ACTUALLY being taken back to that event in history does a few things. First, it means you aren't seeing a memory of Tower of Joy, you are actually at the Tower of Joy. This raises interesting questions, like "why are Bran and 3ER watching TOJ alone? Is this the only time they show up to watch it? Does no one else with this power ever visit here? Why aren't there, at the least, one or two other copies of Bran from when he might want to revisit this to learn more, or of 3ER from any time he might have watched this before?". I mean, its not like you can't have multiple beings in a "memory" at the same time, otherwise I have no earthly idea what was going on with the Nights King.

                      Second, it means that we now expose ourselves to the singular reason I hate time travel: paradoxes. If you can travel back in time (or even send an idea back in time), why hasn't Future Bran decided to do what 3ER completely forgot to do and warn his past self about "oh, hey, try not to spelunking by yourself, or at least avoid White Walkers if you do"? It's Magic TV Logic and/or TV Characters Behaving Like Idiots at its worst if you don't explore this. Granted, the show (and books?) might very well subvert this. The DeLorean can't return from the 1800s if it's out of fuel, maybe there's something that stops Bran from being able to use this power again. That'd be fine, but then it just makes the time travel into a one time thing, which sort of makes the weirwoods into a giant red herring and/or shaggy dog story. Dumb.

                      Really, the only way out of that pickle (no one uses time travel, even though its totally still an option) is the Red Vs. Blue S3 approach: you never actually change anything through time travel, you just either end up causing the events that transpired or you have no impact whatsoever. Which is probably the best way to deal with the time travel paradox, but probably is better suited for a comedy than whatever we're trying to accomplish here.

                      TL;DR version: Time travel is ****ing stupid and brings up more questions than it answers.
                      If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

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                      • Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

                        Originally posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
                        The time travel thing just annoys me so much, because I absolutely hate it as a plot device, and it changes my perception of the weirwood net into something that just isn't as interesting to me. (Okay, this is going to be more of a rant on how it impacts the books if this element plays out there as it did in the show)

                        In hindsight maybe this was inevitable that ideas could be warged across time and space... Jojen and Bran both have had prophetic (if more symbolic) dreams for quite a while. Bran's dreams are probably more of the "3ER is talking to me from a great distance" and have no time travel (he basically dreams of Ned's death, as does Rickon, before they know about it, but that's before the raven arrives with the news, not before it actually happens). More significantly, Jojen claims to know how he's going to die, and foresees things like the Ironborn taking Winterfell.

                        But that's not quite how I had thought the weirwood net (namely Bran's visions from ADWD) were presented. The way that was presented made it seem more like the pensieve in Harry Potter, or the neural network in Avatar: the weirwoods were like this database of memories from the past (as Bran does when starts seeing some visions), and are able to produce a sort of hivemind where you could communicate from one weirwood to another (like when Bran whispers to Theon). As such, the memories/history are just like rewatching an .mp4 file through trees that also function as a sort of phone system.

                        The idea that you are ACTUALLY being taken back to that event in history does a few things. First, it means you aren't seeing a memory of Tower of Joy, you are actually at the Tower of Joy. This raises interesting questions, like "why are Bran and 3ER watching TOJ alone? Is this the only time they show up to watch it? Does no one else with this power ever visit here? Why aren't there, at the least, one or two other copies of Bran from when he might want to revisit this to learn more, or of 3ER from any time he might have watched this before?". I mean, its not like you can't have multiple beings in a "memory" at the same time, otherwise I have no earthly idea what was going on with the Nights King.

                        Second, it means that we now expose ourselves to the singular reason I hate time travel: paradoxes. If you can travel back in time (or even send an idea back in time), why hasn't Future Bran decided to do what 3ER completely forgot to do and warn his past self about "oh, hey, try not to spelunking by yourself, or at least avoid White Walkers if you do"? It's Magic TV Logic and/or TV Characters Behaving Like Idiots at its worst if you don't explore this. Granted, the show (and books?) might very well subvert this. The DeLorean can't return from the 1800s if it's out of fuel, maybe there's something that stops Bran from being able to use this power again. That'd be fine, but then it just makes the time travel into a one time thing, which sort of makes the weirwoods into a giant red herring and/or shaggy dog story. Dumb.

                        Really, the only way out of that pickle (no one uses time travel, even though its totally still an option) is the Red Vs. Blue S3 approach: you never actually change anything through time travel, you just either end up causing the events that transpired or you have no impact whatsoever. Which is probably the best way to deal with the time travel paradox, but probably is better suited for a comedy than whatever we're trying to accomplish here.

                        TL;DR version: Time travel is ****ing stupid and brings up more questions than it answers.
                        I see exactly what you're saying. I am going to reserve judgement for a little bit for a couple reasons.

                        First, as you mentioned, there are some "outs" where it won't be a complete ****show.

                        Second, this writing team has done a **** good job of making things that originally look silly or obnoxious work*. I think they can make this work too, without going down the time travel rabbit hole.

                        *except for Dorne, Dorne still ****ing sucks
                        Having a clear conscience just means you have a bad memory or you had a boring weekend.

                        RIP - Kirby

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                        • Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

                          Also worth mentioning. I laugh every time I see Tormund doing commericials for Wyndham.
                          Having a clear conscience just means you have a bad memory or you had a boring weekend.

                          RIP - Kirby

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                          • Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

                            Originally posted by bigblue_dl View Post

                            *except for Dorne, Dorne still ****ing sucks
                            bugsbunnycuttingoffdorne.jpg
                            "I went over the facts in my head, and admired how much uglier the situation had just become. Over the years I've learned that ignorance is more than just bliss. It's freaking orgasmic ecstasy".- Harry Dresden, Blood Rites


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                            • Originally posted by bronconick View Post
                              bugsbunnycuttingoffdorne.jpg
                              Some of the show Dorne problems, I get.

                              Obviously they were going to combine characters to reduce the number of suitors chasing after Dany. So, by the similar logic that combined Victarion Greyjoy's role into Euron (and maybe Asha/Yara), it makes sense to nix a seemingly redundant Quentyn role, and whatever remains of that story will be given to other characters.

                              And if you aren't going to have (f)Aegon, then the only reason to include Arianne is to go through the Queenmaking section of AFFC. Since the show seemingly wanted to just cut to the chase and kill Myrcella (gets closer to the Cersei endgame by killing off more of her children), there's no use left for Arianne.

                              Without Quentyn or Arianne, there isn't really much in the show to be part of Doran's "master plan" and schemes to try to aid a Targaryen restoration. Maybe keep Trystane alive and send him after Dany, but again that's superfluous when you have the Ironborn.

                              So... what else is left to do? I get that it sucks for the show to blow off a really cool "long con" artist/schemer in Doran, but there isn't much left for him to work with in the show.
                              Last edited by ExileOnDaytonStreet; 05-25-2016, 10:10 PM.
                              If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

                              BRING BACK PAT RICHTER!!!


                              At his graduation ceremony from the U of Minnesota, my cousin got a keychain. When asked what UW gave her for graduation, my sister said, "A degree from a University that matters."

                              Canned music is a pathetic waste of your time.

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                              • Re: Game of Thrones Season 6: Lions and Wolves and Sand Snakes, oh my!

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