Wisconsin vs Total Recall

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

You misunderstood. I'm saying that nobody is against unions, in general, having bargaining rights. That's not at all what the WI fiasco was about. Although the public sector labor unions there were forced to accept some accountability to their bosses (the public sector) rather than providing their own "oversight" from within. It's not nearly the same thing.

No. I don't misunderstand. I just know what the facts are and what the chart of the past 30 years looks like.

[joecct]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Hate is a strong word.

The counter argument:

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Um, I'm pretty sure galley slaves are an argument for why we need unions...

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

*****http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/9/9e/HA_HA_HA,_OH_WOW.jpg******

Maybe for the first week it existed.

For the first month or so, probably. Then it became pure astroturf for this weasel and his paymasters.

*****http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/28/article-1306961-0AF3CBC5000005DC-645_634x412.jpg******

[Carter]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Exactly, the public sector unions in Wisconsin still have bargaining rights over working conditions; their right to bargain wages and benefits has been curtailed, no other rights were "taken away" except mandatory dues collection from all.

Could you cite some source for this info? Everything I've seen published in the paper here in Wisconsin stated that the only thing the union could still bargain was wage increases, and that those would be limited to the cost of living. You also keep stating that there were union dues taken from all employees, which is simply untrue. The vast majority of administrative employees in union represented positions were not members of the union and did not pay dues. Granted, blue collar employees have long been fair share, and paid dues whether a member or not, and new administrative hires would also pay dues. The last I knew the courts said that the state would have to continue to collect union dues automatically from a member's paycheck.

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Sure. The destruction of the middle class is fine. Just don't tax a job creator.

Unless that job creator is starting their own business, and competing with someone larger that can pay for lobbyists and influence taxation policy.

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Geez, I'd like to have ten bucks for every time one of these lib crepe hangers mentioned the Citizens United decision.

...a decision that only applies to federal election law, and has no bearing whatsoever on spending in Wisconsin state elections.

[Craig P.]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

...a decision that only applies to federal election law, and has no bearing whatsoever on spending in Wisconsin state elections.

I'm curious as to your legal logic as to why the reasoning used for federal election law does not also apply to state election law, given that the states also subject to the First Amendment. A decision on a federal law may very well create precedent for similar rulings on similar state laws.

[WeWantMore]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I'm curious as to your legal logic as to why the reasoning used for federal election law does not also apply to state election law, given that the states also subject to the First Amendment. A decision on a federal law may very well create precedent for similar rulings on similar state laws.

Sure...

But the fact of the matter is, in this specific case, of the millions of dollars spent in this election, guess how many of those dollars could have been spent pre-Citizens United?

100% of them.

That decision had nowt to do with Wisconsin spending.

[WeWantMore]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

People agreeing with you (unions should have bargaining rights in this case) isn't necessarily enough to get them to the polls in greater #'s than the opposition.

But did people agree with them? Polls seemed to say no. Exits here:

Support Limiting Collective Bargaining: 52%
Oppose Limiting Collective Bargaining: 47%

Which seems awfully close to the final horse-race numbers, hey? I think it's whistling past the graveyard to some extent for the takeaway to be "People agreed with us, they just didn't vote". It's not like Walker won 'cause liberals stayed home.

[unofan]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Except that there is no opposition to the statement that "unions should have bargaining rights."

Except that's what Walker did - "Public unions should have no collective bargaining rights except for COLA's up to the inflation level." Oh, and police and firefighters? By all means, go ahead and unionize since you normally vote Republican.

No right to bargain on salary increases past inflation. No right to bargain on benefits, pension, or anything else.

Seems like opposition to the notion that "unions should have bargaining rights" to me.

[WeWantMore]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Except that's what Walker did - "Public unions should have no collective bargaining rights except for COLA's up to the inflation level." Oh, and police and firefighters? By all means, go ahead and unionize since you normally vote Republican.

No right to bargain on salary increases past inflation. No right to bargain on benefits, pension, or anything else.

Seems like opposition to the notion that "unions should have bargaining rights" to me.

Evidence? (Honest question, I'd be surprised if that's true).

The Dem Lt. Gov. candidate last night was head of the Firefighters Union, for the record.

State's largest police union endorsed Barrett as well...

I strongly disagree with Walker's decision not to include police and fire, but the idea that it was political seems dubious.

[unofan]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Evidence? (Honest question, I'd be surprised if that's true).

There's no other reason for them to be exempted that I can see. It surprised me too, but why else did Walker exempt them?

I suppose it could have been an attempt to limit the damage - cops and firefighters can rally voters alot more than teachers or paper pushers. If you exempt them, maybe they're less likely to rally against him?

[unofan]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

...a decision that only applies to federal election law, and has no bearing whatsoever on spending in Wisconsin state elections.

States still have to abide by the 1st Amendment. If the Federal government lost on 1st Amendment grounds, what makes you think states will do any better?

[carltonbarrett]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

From what I've seen in MA, Cops and Firemen get A LOT more aggressive in regards to protesting, threats, goonism, etc when it comes to contract issues.