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Thread: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

  1. #521
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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    Just like most people. A very liberal friend facebook posted a scare-mongering piece the other day about reproductive health issues asking, "Do you want the government making your health care decisions?" I thought it was pretty hilarious, considering how vociferously she argued for Obamacare (and how strongly she would actually prefer single-payer). So in fact, the answer is, "Yes, she does want the government making health care decisions - so as long as the government is making decisions that she agrees with."
    isn't that last part the reason we're in this trouble? Person A keeps looking for the government to make decisions for everyone that make Person A happy (replace person A with any number of interest groups, politcal parties, corporations, etc). The reason we're in this mess is because the government has stopped letting people make their own decisions unaffected by policies that choose favorites, give advantage to certain companies. We haven't had a free market in a huge number of sectors for a long time and it is continuing to get worse and worse on affecting our ability to correct things.
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  2. #522
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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    Just like most people. A very liberal friend facebook posted a scare-mongering piece the other day about reproductive health issues asking, "Do you want the government making your health care decisions?" I thought it was pretty hilarious, considering how vociferously she argued for Obamacare (and how strongly she would actually prefer single-payer). So in fact, the answer is, "Yes, she does want the government making health care decisions - so as long as the government is making decisions that she agrees with."
    The big difference is that many on the right complain about govt intervention frequently...but then support it in other cases. Many on the left really don't care...but raise the issue primarily to question stark inconsistancy on the right. If the right wasn't taking such a hard position on both sides of the fence, its questionable whether the left or in this case your friend would say anything.
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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    The big difference is that many on the right complain about govt intervention frequently...but then support it in other cases. Many on the left really don't care...but raise the issue primarily to question stark inconsistancy on the right. If the right wasn't taking such a hard position on both sides of the fence, its questionable whether the left or in this case your friend would say anything.
    "keep your laws out of my vagina" is primarily to question inconsistencies on the right?

    Pass me some of that....
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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    If the right wasn't taking such a hard position on both sides of the fence, its questionable whether the left or in this case your friend would say anything.
    This is a load of BS. Politically-inclined people will post ridiculous crap that backs up their preconceived notions regardless of what - if anything - the other side has been / is saying.

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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Really? On the right, what exactly is the primary activist movement tea party all about? On the left, is the corresponding major activist movement occupy wall street about limiting the size of the federal government?

    I didn't think there was any question on which side of the spectrum was 'all about keeping the federal government out of our lives' as a general platform.

    Edit: Who knows about your friend. But I know many a liberal who doesn't care that much about these types of issues yet who laugh about these types of major inconsistencies on the right.
    Last edited by 5mn_Major; 06-27-2012 at 09:32 AM.
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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    And yet, if this were about being forced to, say, wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle or wearing seatbelts in cars, you'd be making a speech about how your personal liberty is being infringed.
    I assume you mean some sort of generic "you" and not me personally?

    When it comes to helmets while riding motorcycles and seat belts driving cars, I changed my mind years ago based on something I heard someone else say (you might want to try that once in awhile yourself, listening to what a person actually says without filtering it through your prejudices first. It help keeps the brain from ossifying!).

    Their point was, what about paramedics, police offers, other rescue personnel who have to deal with the injured and the wreckage? Not using these protective devices puts an additional burden on them, quite unfairly.

    Civil society requires trade-offs between different peoples' interests for all of us to get along together. In this case the rights of the rescue people seem a bit more important to me. Others may disagree and that's why we vote.
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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    That's not the point. FreshFish is apparently all for government intervention and mandated behavior as long as it's against things he hates. But the second it forces him to do something, "OMG ***BBQ!!!!!!"
    You are wrong. Your prejudices are showing, and they don't put you in a very favorable light (in this post at least). You allow your frustration over being inarticulate to overrule your reason (assuming you have some).
    Last edited by FreshFish; 06-27-2012 at 10:13 AM.
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  8. #528

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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    You are wrong. Your prejudices are showing, and they don't put you in a very favorable light (in this post at least). You allow your frustration over being inarticulate to overrule your reason (assuming you have some).
    Careful with casually throwing out those ad homs. unofan is a very articulate poster -- moreso than most here.

    Taking you out of the picture for a moment, surely you agree that there is a large measure of hypocrisy among the "small government" types when it comes to their particular hobby-horse issues? That does not invalidate the general argument, which can be made in a non-contradictory way (our friend eLynah does this all the time), but it does mean that when people start railing about strict controls on government "intrusiveness" it's a good idea to have the salt shaker on standby.
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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    What worries me is another attempt at "but it's for the children!". When somebody says that, I automatically check if my wallet is still there.
    I wait for someone to say they automatically check their wallet for spending regarding the elderly. Apart from some level of school funding, which is a necessity, the government really spends very little on children even on basic things like nutrition, basic medical care, etc. The stark reality is we pour huge sums into caring for the elderly, particularly near the end of their lives, but very little into setting up kids to be healthy in life, probably leading to a lot more spending on those kids to try to keep them healthy down the road when they are older. It's a tough conversation as no one wants to neglect the elderly, but it's a reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Good to see you're so reasonable.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Very well, said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    A fair assessment Bob.

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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gray View Post
    I wait for someone to say they automatically check their wallet for spending regarding the elderly. Apart from some level of school funding, which is a necessity, the government really spends very little on children even on basic things like nutrition, basic medical care, etc. The stark reality is we pour huge sums into caring for the elderly, particularly near the end of their lives, but very little into setting up kids to be healthy in life, probably leading to a lot more spending on those kids to try to keep them healthy down the road when they are older. It's a tough conversation as no one wants to neglect the elderly, but it's a reality.
    Very well, said. And more proof that the baby boomers will bankrupt us all. Someone should have told them and their peers while they were in office that they needed to put some money away for retirement instead of blowing it all on hookers (war) and blow (tax cuts).
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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    We spend wayyyyy too much on end of life care. What sense does it make to spend many thousands of dollars to extend your life a few months when you're already 80 years old and on five different drugs? Sure, let's give old farts chemotherapy to get rid of that slow-growing cancer so that they can then die of an inevitable infection when their WBC count craters.

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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gray View Post
    I wait for someone to say they automatically check their wallet for spending regarding the elderly. Apart from some level of school funding, which is a necessity, the government really spends very little on children even on basic things like nutrition, basic medical care, etc. The stark reality is we pour huge sums into caring for the elderly, particularly near the end of their lives, but very little into setting up kids to be healthy in life, probably leading to a lot more spending on those kids to try to keep them healthy down the road when they are older. It's a tough conversation as no one wants to neglect the elderly, but it's a reality.
    Agreed.

    I will say there is a difference though between someone who is taking up resources to improve aspects of their life that just come from aging vs. someone who fighting cancer and would otherwise be healthy. The former is where there's often considerable waste.
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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Can you imagine how villified (and unelectable) any politician would be who even broaches this subject? This is just one example of many conversations our nation should be having that we don't have because we place so little value on interests beyond self-interest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Good to see you're so reasonable.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Very well, said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    A fair assessment Bob.

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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gray View Post
    Can you imagine how villified (and unelectable) any politician would be who even broaches this subject? This is just one example of many conversations our nation should be having that we don't have because we place so little value on interests beyond self-interest.
    We don't have to imagine it.
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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    That's a stretch.

    If you want, I'll trot out some Paul Ryan proposals to rein in Medicare.
    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Good to see you're so reasonable.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Very well, said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    A fair assessment Bob.

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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gray View Post
    That's a stretch.

    If you want, I'll trot out some Paul Ryan proposals to rein in Medicare.
    Rein in?

    You mean destroy.
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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Rein in?

    You mean destroy.
    No, rein in. Drop the partisan outlook, just for a moment.

    I know the issue with Ryan is that he didn't cut defense commensurately, which is a problem and would need to be rectified. But, it's beyond dispute that he has put forward proposals to control senior health care spending in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Good to see you're so reasonable.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Very well, said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    A fair assessment Bob.

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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gray View Post
    No, rein in. Drop the partisan outlook, just for a moment.

    I know the issue with Ryan is that he didn't cut defense commensurately, which is a problem and would need to be rectified. But, it's beyond dispute that he has put forward proposals to control senior health care spending in the future.
    Vouchers don't rein in the spending they just move it. Got nothing to do with being partisan. By giving me a voucher they are going to increase my out of pocket. Basically a tax increase that's acceptable to Grover and his idiot cronies.
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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Vouchers don't rein in the spending they just move it. Got nothing to do with being partisan. By giving me a voucher they are going to increase my out of pocket. Basically a tax increase that's acceptable to Grover and his idiot cronies.
    Thanks for clarifying that you're really not interested in reining in health care costs in the future.

    How on earth do you rein in government spending on healthcare without them spending less, meaning that for the same amount of coverage, people will have to pay more out of pocket? It's simple math. And don't give me gobblydegook about making the system more efficient. Everyone is in favor of that, but it rarely if ever happens and isn't likely to play a major role in controlling spending down the road.
    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Good to see you're so reasonable.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Very well, said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    A fair assessment Bob.

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    Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gray View Post
    Thanks for clarifying that you're really not interested in reining in health care costs in the future.

    How on earth do you rein in government spending on healthcare without them spending less, meaning that for the same amount of coverage, people will have to pay more out of pocket? It's simple math. And don't give me gobblydegook about making the system more efficient. Everyone is in favor of that, but it rarely if ever happens and isn't likely to play a major role in controlling spending down the road.
    Get the government out of it then. Here's my option to you. Give me universal health care or let me buy my own. And that means I want a law passed that companies can no longer provide health care to their employees. This whole system of some employers doing this, and some doing that, and the government doing that mucks up the market place and drives my costs up.

    So, which is it. All or none. Cause that's the two ways I want it. And Paul Ryan's hidden tax increase that screws the middle class the most (as they all do) and placates the rich just doesn't cut it for me.
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