PDA

View Full Version : Neumann censured by NCAA



Pages : [1] 2

zamboni99
01-20-2012, 08:57 AM
Two post-seasons sans Knights (men's and women's), if I'm comprehending this correctly.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/pdfs/2012/neumann+university+public+infractions+report

PrezdeJohnson09
01-20-2012, 09:41 AM
Two post-seasons sans Knights (men's and women's), if I'm comprehending this correctly.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/pdfs/2012/neumann+university+public+infractions+report

I think the postseason ban is just for this season and the probation period is for two years.

That was the case for Buffalo State, Geneseo and Potsdam at least.

WIrinkrat
01-20-2012, 09:47 AM
This stuff really annoys me, and it's happened to a few other schools as well.

It's not a "defacto athletics scholarship" if it's being publicized on the website and on general recruiting trips to Canada by admissions (non-athletic) staff members.

I don't think it's right to punish coaches for recruiting extensively in talent rich areas just because the profile of the school isn't going to attract general students from those same areas.

Now if there are many Canadians who enrolled in the school and didn't receive those scholarships while the athletes did, then it's a different story..but just skimming quickly through the report I got the impression that this was actively publicized and promoted to all International students, athlete or otherwise.

PrezdeJohnson09
01-20-2012, 10:53 AM
This stuff really annoys me, and it's happened to a few other schools as well.

It's not a "defacto athletics scholarship" if it's being publicized on the website and on general recruiting trips to Canada by admissions (non-athletic) staff members.

I don't think it's right to punish coaches for recruiting extensively in talent rich areas just because the profile of the school isn't going to attract general students from those same areas.

Now if there are many Canadians who enrolled in the school and didn't receive those scholarships while the athletes did, then it's a different story..but just skimming quickly through the report I got the impression that this was actively publicized and promoted to all International students, athlete or otherwise.

I certainly see your point but how "active" are many colleges going to Canada to recruit potential "non-student athletes" to their school?

I think "de-facto athletic scholarship" is a bit harsh. But, in reality how many times are the women's and men's hockey coaches going to Canada to recruit kids to come to their school? Probably a lot more than anyone else from the school. So, how likely is it that Joe Schmo non-athlete or Susy Mediocre from Kingston, Ontario or Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan is going to come to or even hear of Neumann University in this case if he/she isn't going to try and play hockey there.

WIrinkrat
01-20-2012, 12:06 PM
I certainly see your point but how "active" are many colleges going to Canada to recruit potential "non-student athletes" to their school?

I think "de-facto athletic scholarship" is a bit harsh. But, in reality how many times are the women's and men's hockey coaches going to Canada to recruit kids to come to their school? Probably a lot more than anyone else from the school. So, how likely is it that Joe Schmo non-athlete or Susy Mediocre from Kingston, Ontario or Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan is going to come to or even hear of Neumann University in this case if he/she isn't going to try and play hockey there.


Yeah, that is exactly my point. Why should they be punished for their geography?

If it's available to everyone and it's publicized as such...and it's being applied equally to non athlete International students when they do attend even if it's once every 5 years...then it should be fine.

Otherwise isn't it just an advantage for a school like a Norwich or Oswego or Plattsburgh or Adrian (not implying that anything shady is going on at these schools) that is located close to Canada and has the ability to go out and actively recruit more non-athlete Internationals because of their location?

They weren't hiding anything, and they weren't cheating anybody. It's a stupid ruling, IMO.

TonyTheTiger20
01-20-2012, 12:56 PM
Come on guys.

Really.

Come on.

http://i44.tinypic.com/r8hulf.png

WIrinkrat
01-20-2012, 01:41 PM
Come on guys.

Really.

Come on.

http://i44.tinypic.com/r8hulf.png

What is your point? The hockey teams recruit the bulk of the Canadian students because....shockingly....there are a lot of good hockey players in Canada and not a whole lot in the Mid-Atlantic.

Again, unless they were hiding this scholarship from any non athletes that inquired, or failed to offer it to an equitable percentage of normal applicants as they do to athletic applicants, then I don't think the NCAA should be in the business of essentially punishing schools because their geography makes it less likely that a normal student would elect to take advantage of an opportunity at said school.

ARM
01-20-2012, 01:54 PM
What is your point? The hockey teams recruit the bulk of the Canadian students because....shockingly....there are a lot of good hockey players in Canada and not a whole lot in the Mid-Atlantic.

Again, unless they were hiding this scholarship from any non athletes that inquired, or failed to offer it to an equitable percentage of normal applicants as they do to athletic applicants, then I don't think the NCAA should be in the business of essentially punishing schools because their geography makes it less likely that a normal student would elect to take advantage of an opportunity at said school.Why does D-III exist? Because member institutions wanted student athletes to be able to compete in a varsity sport without it becoming as all consuming as some D-I sports can be. The D-III programs decided that as part of that, they would not award athletic scholarships as D-II and D-I sports do. If the membership feels this is unfair, they can move to D-II, award scholarships, and not have to look for ways to get around the limitations. Maybe Neumann is entirely innocent in this case, and it truly believed that this program would be a benefit to the student body as a whole, not just the athletes. However, if there is any institutional control at all, Neumann should have quickly realized that this was not the case. If it is all about geography, then why aren't more non-hockey players from Canada finding their way to Neumann and CISIG awards? Perhaps the answer is that everybody from Canada plays hockey, but then it would behoove the university to come up with some other program that would be available to the students at large, not just hockey players.

WIrinkrat
01-20-2012, 02:08 PM
Why does D-III exist? Because member institutions wanted student athletes to be able to compete in a varsity sport without it becoming as all consuming as some D-I sports can be. The D-III programs decided that as part of that, they would not award athletic scholarships as D-II and D-I sports do. If the membership feels this is unfair, they can move to D-II, award scholarships, and not have to look for ways to get around the limitations. Maybe Neumann is entirely innocent in this case, and it truly believed that this program would be a benefit to the student body as a whole, not just the athletes. However, if there is any institutional control at all, Neumann should have quickly realized that this was not the case. If it is all about geography, then why aren't more non-hockey players from Canada finding their way to Neumann and CISIG awards? Perhaps the answer is that everybody from Canada plays hockey, but then it would behoove the university to come up with some other program that would be available to the students at large, not just hockey players.


This is not an athletic scholarship.

In any event these schools can only offer opportunities. They can't make decisions for potential students ad where they will choose to attend school.

Besides, let's not pretend for a second that the landscape at D3 is fair and even as far as what kind of aid awards are available for students at different schools. Sure those different aid awards might be available to all students that meet a certain criteria...just like this one was. The hockey coaches are essentially being punished for doing their job.

eg1351
01-20-2012, 02:15 PM
A better question would be (and it is nearly impossible to know)... would the school even offer this scholarship to students from Canada, athlete or not, if they didn't have a hockey program. It is one thing to say they advertise it to everyone, but if you do so knowing that the only people (or the majority) to take you up on the offer will be the athletes, then is that right?

Just cause you advertise something to everyone doesn't mean that it is targeted at everyone.

ARM
01-20-2012, 02:21 PM
The hockey coaches are essentially being punished for doing their job.The unfortunate part of any NCAA sanction isn't the coaches as much as the student athletes; they are the people most victimized. While the coaches did nothing wrong, the institution did. The rule existed in advance of this program, and those who instituted it should have followed up to see if it was meeting the rule. Other schools were previously penalized. A light bulb should have gone off in someone's head long before this.

While not an athletic scholarship, it is clearly a benefit, and one that in practice was only going to athletes.

TonyTheTiger20
01-20-2012, 02:36 PM
What is your point?
This is precisely my point:

Maybe Neumann is entirely innocent in this case, and it truly believed that this program would be a benefit to the student body as a whole, not just the athletes. However, if there is any institutional control at all, Neumann should have quickly realized that this was not the case.

If you can't see how this looks like de-facto athletic scholarships to an outsider, you need to take off the Neumann-colored glasses (whatever that color may be. No disrepect toward Neumann/D-III athletics in general intended in the slightest, I just don't follow it).

canadahockey26
01-20-2012, 04:27 PM
So Neumann and Potsdam are both out of ECAC West Playoffs?

PrezdeJohnson09
01-20-2012, 04:49 PM
So Neumann and Potsdam are both out of ECAC West Playoffs?

Just Neumann. Potsdam is eligible this year afaik

OneTimer
01-20-2012, 06:05 PM
Potsdam is absolutely not eligible for post-season play this year.

SeymoreHockey
01-20-2012, 07:32 PM
Ha...this is good. The coach "way back when" wanted to recruit my D without even seeing her play. He had her resume and that was enough in his mind. Consequently, it was enough for me too. He was just recruiting Canadian players without even assessing their skills. For that reason alone, we went elsewhere...and are glad we did.

MICZamboni
01-20-2012, 10:30 PM
Ha...this is good. The coach "way back when" wanted to recruit my D without even seeing her play. He had her resume and that was enough in his mind. Consequently, it was enough for me too. He was just recruiting Canadian players without even assessing their skills. For that reason alone, we went elsewhere...and are glad we did.

:rolleyes:

gojackets
01-20-2012, 11:16 PM
Besides, let's not pretend for a second that the landscape at D3 is fair and even as far as what kind of aid awards are available for students at different schools. Sure those different aid awards might be available to all students that meet a certain criteria...just like this one was. The hockey coaches are essentially being punished for doing their job.

UW-Superior has(maybe had) a similar program that was open to all out of state students...Basically allowing them to pay in-state tuition. Yes the Canadian Hockey Players benefitted from the program, but so did the 100 or so Sri Lankans on campus, the kids from Iowa, North Dakota etc. I think the biggest problem here is that it is Canada specific...which to me sounds like they created this program to recruit hockey players from Canada. What was their Canadian enrollment before the program started?...I'm guessing it wasn't a lot of non-hockey players, they create this program to make tuition cheaper for Canadians..when the only Canadians that come to your school play hockey...sounds like a scholarship to me.

The question that has to be raised is were more non-athletes applying for the CISIG program and getting turned down. The article said 1 non-athlete was given the award, but it doesn't really mention whether or not they were declining applications from non-athletes and awarding them to athletes...which would definitely be a violoation.

Wasn't one of those years listed the year the Neumann men won the title? If so, should that have to be relinquished?

LaRondelle
01-26-2012, 12:37 PM
"Since Neumann discontinued the grant program in October 2010, no current athletes at Neumann have received grants during this academic year. Therefore, the Neumann menís and womenís hockey teams appear to be fully eligible for league and NCAA playoffs this season."

Read more: http://www.uscho.com/2012/01/26/neumanns-ncaa-violation/#ixzz1kbBPCovV

Cali
01-26-2012, 12:50 PM
"Since Neumann discontinued the grant program in October 2010, no current athletes at Neumann have received grants during this academic year. Therefore, the Neumann menís and womenís hockey teams appear to be fully eligible for league and NCAA playoffs this season."

Read more: http://www.uscho.com/2012/01/26/neumanns-ncaa-violation/#ixzz1kbBPCovV

I haven't researched their roster but it would absolutely suck if you were a CDN and were told that if you wanted to remain on the roster, the "deal" that we promised you is no longer available and you will have to pay full fare. The grant program is discontinued so your cost of education has gone way up. The student-athletes are getting the bums rush in this instance.

Cali