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Happy
01-05-2012, 06:36 PM
I think we can both agree that the vast majority of fans going to either the NCHC tourney or new WCHA tourney (assuming NCHC never formed) would be from North Dakota. After that, I agree that very few will care about a WMU-SCSU matchup or a Tech-SCSU matchup (or a Tech-UAA matchup)...I think you're going to get roughly the same amount of fans. Obviously, a UNO-CC matchup would theoretically get the same amount of fans regardless of which conference we're talking about. Because North Dakota is bringing probably 12k to the tournament (realistically anywhere from 10-15k), and SCSU and Duluth probably make up the majority of the other fans (again, regardless if we're talking NCHC or new WCHA) the tourney probably maxes out at about 14-15k/game, or about 60k overall (probably anywhere from 50-60k). Let's say that each fan generates $50 in revenue for the conference...

NCHC Tourney w/60k brings in $3 million. That means each team brings home $375,000 (again, just for argument sake).

In order for each team to bring home $375,000 in the new WCHA, they would have to sell 90k tickets (aka sell out the X for every game...something that doesn't even happen now). If they sell the same 60k, each school is bringing home $250,000.

Basically, in order for the new WCHA to break even with the NCHC tournament, they have to sell 1.5 tickets for every 1 ticket the NCHC sells (or 50% more). That just isn't going to happen. That's why the fewer hands approach brings more money to each school.

you forgot about the first round home games.

Fighting Sioux 23
01-05-2012, 06:43 PM
This seems to have become the defacto NCHC thread for a while and since we've discussed tourney site and schedule I wanna hear people's thoughts on partners.

Assuming a 24 game schedule happens, every team gets 6 home, 6 road conference series so there's one opponent who you don't host, one you don't travel to each year. But are the Colorado teams going to deal with two out of seven years only getting two games against each other? No chance for a h/h those years, and so DU goes a whole season without hosting CC and vice versa. I don't see it, wondering if people are on the same page and that we get the old rivalry pairing where you play your rival four times every season. And obviously Eastern time zone teams and Mountain time zoners are together but how do you guys see the Centrals split up?

As you said, the obvious pairs are DU-CC and WMU-Miami. After that, I think it's either UMD-UND and SCSU-UNO or UMD-SCSU and UND-UNO. SCSU and UNO are slightly closer than UNO and UND, but UMD and SCSU are slightly closer than UMD and UND. My gut would tell me that SCSU and UMD get paired while UND gets paired with UNO.

Fighting Sioux 23
01-05-2012, 06:53 PM
you forgot about the first round home games.

True. That will show that the NCHC will make even more. We'll use a simple example here as well.

Let's first look at NCHC. Say North Dakota, Denver, CC and Omaha host first round series.

North Dakota sells 11,000 @ $30/game (just for ease of calculation)
Denver sells 6,000 @ $30/game
CC sells 6,000 @ $30/game
Omaha sells 8,000 @ $30/game

That is 31,000 tickets at $30/game, and say there are 10 games total (two series go 3 games), that equals 310,000 tickets sold at $30/game for a gross revenue of $9.3 million (obviously actual revenue will be vastly different). Divide that by 8 schools, and we have 1.1625 million/school.

Now for the new WCHA. We'll use UND, Denver, CC, Omaha again, and add SCSU and Tech.

SCSU can sell 6,000 at $30/game
Tech can sell 4,000 at $30/game

That's an extra 10,000 tickets at $30/game, and lets say we have five extra games (that's one of the series going to 3 games). As a result, we have 50,000 extra tickets tacked on to the 310,000 from UND, DU, CC and UNO. 360,000 tickets at $30 game results in a gross revenue of $10.8 million. Divide that by 12 schools, and we're at $900,000, or about 77% of what the NCHC schools take home despite having 5 fewer games in the First Round.

7&7
01-05-2012, 07:24 PM
"Jim" is an Indian name, at least it was to Mark Twain. Shouldn't the NCAA be looking into this?

The tale of Huck Fin featured an African American character referred to as "N***** Jim". The tale of Tom Sawyer featured an American Indian character referred to as "I**** Joe".
Given you are an individual that appears to pride themself on being a bit of an intellectual, utterly concerned with academia, I am surprised you were unaware of this.


In response to the hiring of Jim Scher, I think it was a reasonable move by the NCHC. The salary isn't outrageous and the fact he does not have a hockey background shouldn't be an issue. Gary Bettman doesn't have a hockey background and yet he has made significant moves toward making the NHL more profitable and marketable. That being said, everyone north of the Mason Dixon hates Bettman's guts for the labor stoppages and relocation of northern/Canadian teams. Even with the lockouts and bad blood, the league is in a better position than it was in '93. Competition is great (not a five team show like the NBA), ticket revenue and attendance up (in most markets), and the NHL is set to be the premiere professional league on a new sports television network. I'm sure Jim Scherr will act in the best business interests of the NCHC and its members, the actions may not be in the best interests of college hockey as a whole, but the best interests of college hockey do not seem to matter to the NCHC.

Happy
01-05-2012, 08:06 PM
The tale of Huck Fin featured an African American character referred to as "N***** Jim". The tale of Tom Sawyer featured an American Indian character referred to as "I**** Joe".
Given you are an individual that appears to pride themself on being a bit of an intellectual, utterly concerned with academia, I am surprised you were unaware of this.


In response to the hiring of Jim Scher, I think it was a reasonable move by the NCHC. The salary isn't outrageous and the fact he does not have a hockey background shouldn't be an issue. Gary Bettman doesn't have a hockey background and yet he has made significant moves toward making the NHL more profitable and marketable. That being said, everyone north of the Mason Dixon hates Bettman's guts for the labor stoppages and relocation of northern/Canadian teams. Even with the lockouts and bad blood, the league is in a better position than it was in '93. Competition is great (not a five team show like the NBA), ticket revenue and attendance up (in most markets), and the NHL is set to be the premiere professional league on a new sports television network. I'm sure Jim Scherr will act in the best business interests of the NCHC and its members, the actions may not be in the best interests of college hockey as a whole, but the best interests of college hockey do not seem to matter to the NCHC.


So, any idea why he was fired by USOC?

Red Cows
01-05-2012, 09:12 PM
True. That will show that the NCHC will make even more. We'll use a simple example here as well.

Let's first look at NCHC. Say North Dakota, Denver, CC and Omaha host first round series.

North Dakota sells 11,000 @ $30/game (just for ease of calculation)
Denver sells 6,000 @ $30/game
CC sells 6,000 @ $30/game
Omaha sells 8,000 @ $30/game

That is 31,000 tickets at $30/game, and say there are 10 games total (two series go 3 games), that equals 310,000 tickets sold at $30/game for a gross revenue of $9.3 million (obviously actual revenue will be vastly different). Divide that by 8 schools, and we have 1.1625 million/school.

Now for the new WCHA. We'll use UND, Denver, CC, Omaha again, and add SCSU and Tech.

SCSU can sell 6,000 at $30/game
Tech can sell 4,000 at $30/game

That's an extra 10,000 tickets at $30/game, and lets say we have five extra games (that's one of the series going to 3 games). As a result, we have 50,000 extra tickets tacked on to the 310,000 from UND, DU, CC and UNO. 360,000 tickets at $30 game results in a gross revenue of $10.8 million. Divide that by 12 schools, and we're at $900,000, or about 77% of what the NCHC schools take home despite having 5 fewer games in the First Round.


For one thing, just putting one team into the equation, I believe that UNO would account for more than 8000 tickets per game in a hypothetical home series. UNO has averaged more fans than that on a nightly basis during the regular season for 8 out of the 15 years (including this one) the program has existed. The first 6 of those included selling out 131 consecutive games in an arena that "only" seated 8,314. Playoff games against name opponents (like those in the NHCH) are going to do better than what the program has averaged against "everybody", I mean, even against Bowling Green.:D

Another thing you have not taken into account is the ability of a given building (namely, ours) to absorb the other team's fan base that might attend, even in first round games. A series between UNO and UND in Omaha is not going to draw only 8,000 fans per game. The crowd(s) would be closer to double that than they are to 8,000. UNO and UMD averaged 9,104 per night in Omaha for a regular season series last year and the Saturday night game was played directly against a Husker night game so the Friday night game (11,181) outdrew the Saturday night game, something that is a complete anomaly where UNO has been concerned.

I think you could safely plug a little better number than that in where UNO is concerned. I realize this doesn't have a big impact on your overall numbers but we are only one of the schools. Can't speak to the others.

beersong
01-05-2012, 09:41 PM
First round playoff attendance is always way lower than the regular season average - sometimes up to 50% less fans.

joecct
01-05-2012, 09:57 PM
This seems to have become the defacto NCHC thread for a while and since we've discussed tourney site and schedule I wanna hear people's thoughts on partners.

Assuming a 24 game schedule happens, every team gets 6 home, 6 road conference series so there's one opponent who you don't host, one you don't travel to each year. But are the Colorado teams going to deal with two out of seven years only getting two games against each other? No chance for a h/h those years, and so DU goes a whole season without hosting CC and vice versa. I don't see it, wondering if people are on the same page and that we get the old rivalry pairing where you play your rival four times every season. And obviously Eastern time zone teams and Mountain time zoners are together but how do you guys see the Centrals split up?Why not a 28 game schedule - 2 home and 2 away vs. every opponent? That's what the old WCHA did.

7&7
01-05-2012, 11:17 PM
So, any idea why he was fired by USOC?

Based on these articles it would seem that the decision may have been driven by office politics and a struggle for power, one of the board members that voted him out was promoted to replace him. Jim was there for six years, his replacement barely made it 6 months before stepping down.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_11928620
http://www.runblogrun.com/2009/03/turmoil-over-scherr-firing-by-larry-eder.html

scsutommyboy
01-05-2012, 11:23 PM
First round playoff attendance is always way lower than the regular season average - sometimes up to 50% less fans.

You are correct. One reason is students don't usually go because it is not part of the regular season package if students pay. Places like SCSU students never go because they are to cheap to pay for tickets they usually get for free.

Red Cows
01-06-2012, 12:04 AM
Why not a 28 game schedule - 2 home and 2 away vs. every opponent? That's what the old WCHA did.

Me like.

We're bummed that the North Dakota Figh..........errrrrrr, the UND Politically Corrects aren't playing a regular season series here in Omaha this year.

johnnyredshoes
01-06-2012, 12:17 AM
You are correct. One reason is students don't usually go because it is not part of the regular season package if students pay. Places like SCSU students never go because they are to cheap to pay for tickets they usually get for free.
Add to that it always seems like if we host, it ends up being during spring break.

manurespreader
01-06-2012, 08:55 AM
I think we can both agree that the vast majority of fans going to either the NCHC tourney or new WCHA tourney (assuming NCHC never formed) would be from North Dakota. After that, I agree that very few will care about a WMU-SCSU matchup or a Tech-SCSU matchup (or a Tech-UAA matchup)...I think you're going to get roughly the same amount of fans. Obviously, a UNO-CC matchup would theoretically get the same amount of fans regardless of which conference we're talking about. Because North Dakota is bringing probably 12k to the tournament (realistically anywhere from 10-15k), and SCSU and Duluth probably make up the majority of the other fans (again, regardless if we're talking NCHC or new WCHA) the tourney probably maxes out at about 14-15k/game, or about 60k overall (probably anywhere from 50-60k). Let's say that each fan generates $50 in revenue for the conference...

NCHC Tourney w/60k brings in $3 million. That means each team brings home $375,000 (again, just for argument sake).

In order for each team to bring home $375,000 in the new WCHA, they would have to sell 90k tickets (aka sell out the X for every game...something that doesn't even happen now). If they sell the same 60k, each school is bringing home $250,000.

Basically, in order for the new WCHA to break even with the NCHC tournament, they have to sell 1.5 tickets for every 1 ticket the NCHC sells (or 50% more). That just isn't going to happen. That's why the fewer hands approach brings more money to each school.

Though I agree that UND brings the most fans I don't think you can fill the x. Presently lets assume that 40% of the fans at the final five are from UND, 40% are from umtc and 20% are everybody else. forgetting the new wcha for a while, in the nchc you get the same number of fans,
40%, but the minnesota fans are not there and you have to replace them. lets say you get an additional 10%, or 2000 fans to travel, that still leaves a lot of empty seats. I don't think duluth and st cloud fills them.So really you have to cut the take by 25% off the top.
As far as the wcha, yes the take would go down some in an expanded league, but mostly because of the absence of umtc although yes you have a good point, but there would most likely be additional games so that would have to be factored in as well.

Personally the nchc could maximize it's take per team by playing at the ralph. I think you'd get more fans with way less expenses.

Flashy Man
01-06-2012, 09:51 AM
Though I agree that UND brings the most fans I don't think you can fill the x. Presently lets assume that 40% of the fans at the final five are from UND, 40% are from umtc and 20% are everybody else. forgetting the new wcha for a while, in the nchc you get the same number of fans,
40%, but the minnesota fans are not there and you have to replace them. lets say you get an additional 10%, or 2000 fans to travel, that still leaves a lot of empty seats. I don't think duluth and st cloud fills them.So really you have to cut the take by 25% off the top.
As far as the wcha, yes the take would go down some in an expanded league, but mostly because of the absence of umtc although yes you have a good point, but there would most likely be additional games so that would have to be factored in as well.

Personally the nchc could maximize it's take per team by playing at the ralph. I think you'd get more fans with way less expenses.

Remember Denver fans still wouldn't show up.

bigblue_dl
01-06-2012, 10:01 AM
Remember Denver fans still wouldn't show up.Denver has fans? :confused:

4four4
01-06-2012, 10:14 AM
7. UNO has the largest booster club in all of college hockey.

You can't be serious.

Dirty
01-06-2012, 10:25 AM
You can't be serious.

Meh, he might be right. UND doesn't really have a booster club that is exclusive to hockey. The Fighting Sioux Club, or Championships Club now, is an Athletics wide organization. Does Minnesota or Michigan have a booster club just for hockey? UNO obviously doesn't have the most fans of any school, but they might have the most hockey booster club members simply because many of the biggest schools don't have hockey boosters clubs.

Osorojo
01-06-2012, 10:59 AM
There are sure a lot of trees around here. Where's the forest?

mmb5
01-06-2012, 12:16 PM
Michigan does have a hockey-only club: http://dekers.org/

goldy_331
01-06-2012, 12:34 PM
Does Minnesota have a booster club just for hockey?

Blue Line Club (http://www.gophersports.com/boosters/blue-line.html)