Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

    This is not rocket science kids...Quanthockey.com. Canada 54.2%, US 24.1%, EUR 21.6%
    Originally posted by FreddyFoyle View Post
    Well, I'm being stubborn because of your dismissal of any facts I present and your blind faith in Coach Eaves, who is only human and just maybe could have misspoke in repeating something he heard or read somewhere.

    So one sure fact. At the 2010 World Hockey Summit in Toronto http://www.hockeycanada.ca/index.php...82/la_id/1.htm Slavomir Lener of the IIHF made a presentation "Junior Development in the World". On page/slide 4 he states -- Percentage of Europeans in the NHL 2009-10: 23.8 percent.

    Whereas Coach Eaves stated the NHL was one-third CHL, one-third NCAA and one-third from Europe. The IIHF states Europeans make up less than one quarter of the NHL. So Eaves was wrong about the 1/3 European bit. So he was wrong. Yes, I'm now being pedantic because you infuriatingly keep asking for concrete evidence that Eaves is wrong. Okay, I have facts now for the European part of the mix, and I'm still looking for reliable stats for the NCAA and CHL, but I'm pretty sure I've proved Eaves is not correct about the equality of the CHL/NCAA/Europe, unless 1/3 = 1/4.

    Geesh, go ahead and ignore me, but don't ignore the facts we have.

    Comment


    • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

      Originally posted by FreddyFoyle View Post
      I'm not sure why it matters if the NHL picks up the expenses for a CHL player who attends a development camp.

      I'm not so entrenched in the thought that players who exhaust their eligibility in the CHL should be eligible for the NCAA. I'd prefer to see hockey players not get blacklisted for playing one shift in an MJ exhibition game. Some sort of rule like the NHL uses - if they play a Major Junior player more than 9 (10?) games they have to keep him with the club and can't send him back to Junior or the AHL. Like others, I would like to see the NCAA allow hockey players to get a taste of Major Junior and be allowed to change their mind and opt for the NCAA. Maybe set the limit at no more than one season with a Major Junior club. They can then enroll at the NCAA program the next academic year if that is what they want to do. What happened to second chances in life, especially when you are often dealing with minors in the eyes of the law.
      Because in the eyes of the NCAA, those are bonuses to the student for being an athlete from an outside organization and are thus impermissible benefits.

      If the player is under 18, it is the parents responsibility to help the athlete make an informed choice.

      At best I'd be willing to compromise is: A player could play in exhibition games and attend a tryout/training camp provided that none of that occurred after the player's 18th birthday and they were not on a regular season roster and can keep full eligibility. The player may make a regular season roster but play in 10 or fewer games before the players 18th birthday, the player may join a NCAA team but the player will only have 3 years of eligibility remaining and have to sit out for a season (same as a transfer). I'd want to prevent MJ teams from just cycling through players and cutting players they didn't project as top 6 F or top 4 D after one season and tell them to just go play in the NCAAs or be able to tell players "Just come and try us out for a year, if you don't like it you can always go join that NCAA team"

      Comment


      • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

        Originally posted by GoBeavers View Post
        This is not rocket science kids...Quanthockey.com. Canada 54.2%, US 24.1%, EUR 21.6%
        That is US and Canadian born not the NCAA vs CHL breakdown.

        Comment


        • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

          http://www.eupnews.com/2011/04/north...h-chl-vs-ncaa/

          Comment


          • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

            Originally posted by FreddyFoyle View Post
            And I keep stating that whoever says that the NHL is 1/3 European is wrong (ask the IIHF!), and therefore whoever states that the NHL is divided equally among from the NCAA, CHL and Europe has to be wrong as well. But rather than admit that you just might be wrong (or the people you read are mistaken), you don't care that much and are moving on. Nice. How to peeve off a detail and fact focused person like me.
            Was never my intention to peeve you off. If it helps, I do admit there is the possibility that what I read was wrong. I've admitted that I don't have the numbers, I just read that in a number of different places. My guess is that it isn't quite 1/3, 1/3, 1/3, but is closer than the 3/1 ratio that some here suggest. To be honest though, and this isn't a slight on you, it really doesn't matter enough to me at this point to argue about.

            Comment


            • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

              Thank you. If these numbers are accurate, and I assume they are, then what I read must have been wrong. In which case, I would really like to know where Eaves and others are getting their statistics.

              Comment


              • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

                Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
                Thank you. If these numbers are accurate, and I assume they are, then what I read must have been wrong. In which case, I would really like to know where Eaves and others are getting their statistics.
                Those numbers appear to be far more accurate than what Eaves was pulling out of his arse....I believe slovofest posted a link which stated that 279 NCAA alums played at least one NHL game back in 09-10. Considering that there must have been close to 1100 players in the NHL (say an average of 35+ players per team), this represents a 25% total...far less than the 1/3rd Eaves was talking about.

                Throughout this entire thread, no supporters of the current NCAA rules have been able to justify their positions other than stating opinions that removing the ban on CHL players would hurt USA hockey and change the game for the worse. Others state that they would hate to see "pro" players ruin the integrity of the amature aspect of NCAA hockey.....an utterly laughable opinion based on no sound reason or merit.

                One is factual is that the NCAA is losing out on the top talent...as evident by the recent NHL drafts. This was the primary reason that coaches like Berenson and Parker did not want the amature rules changed for NCAA hockey, despite being changed for every other sport. They felt that the top players would bypass college all together if they were allowed to go the CHL route in the 1st place. This has now been happening anyway and will not change in the future.

                Allowing CHL players in would greatly enhance the talent pool, especially for the lower end programs, boosting the level of play through-out the NCAA.

                Comment


                • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

                  Not sure if this info has been brought up yet but the NHL has a list of drafted players since 1969 and College Hockey was at 11.5%. Since some were drafted while still in HS and some of those went on to college the numbers for actual college participation would be a little higher. Look at the bottom line of this NHL link for the percentages. http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=31887
                  Last edited by BC/HE; 08-10-2011, 08:19 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

                    There is another factor here as well. The swedish elite league. When the swedes get a whiff that an NCAA school is talking to a recruit, they move him up for a few games, he becomes a pro, and then they send him back down. If the NCAA had an x game rule such that a player could play up for a certain number of games, this monkey business might be avoided. Will it happen? I doubt it, but it might be a good rule to put in.
                    MTU: Three time NCAA champions.

                    It never get's easier, you just go faster. -Greg Lemond

                    Comment


                    • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

                      Originally posted by jnacc View Post
                      Those numbers appear to be far more accurate than what Eaves was pulling out of his arse....I believe slovofest posted a link which stated that 279 NCAA alums played at least one NHL game back in 09-10. Considering that there must have been close to 1100 players in the NHL (say an average of 35+ players per team), this represents a 25% total...far less than the 1/3rd Eaves was talking about.

                      Throughout this entire thread, no supporters of the current NCAA rules have been able to justify their positions other than stating opinions that removing the ban on CHL players would hurt USA hockey and change the game for the worse. Others state that they would hate to see "pro" players ruin the integrity of the amature aspect of NCAA hockey.....an utterly laughable opinion based on no sound reason or merit.

                      One is factual is that the NCAA is losing out on the top talent...as evident by the recent NHL drafts. This was the primary reason that coaches like Berenson and Parker did not want the amature rules changed for NCAA hockey, despite being changed for every other sport. They felt that the top players would bypass college all together if they were allowed to go the CHL route in the 1st place. This has now been happening anyway and will not change in the future.

                      Allowing CHL players in would greatly enhance the talent pool, especially for the lower end programs, boosting the level of play through-out the NCAA.
                      I will answer with a simple stat question. Give me the percent of current NCAA NHL players, (or current raw numbers etc) versus the number of NCAA NHL players from back before the CHL ban. This will show that pre-CHL ban, very few NCAA players got to play in the NHL, but after the ban, the numbers of NCAA players have exploded.

                      Banning CHL players is clearly the best thing that ever happened to NCAA hockey. Keeping the ban is clearly the best thing NCAA can do for the future of NCAA hockey.
                      XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX


                      The reason for the talent in the west? Because MN didn't rely on Canada.

                      Originally posted by MN Pond Hockey
                      Menards could have sold a lot of rope

                      this morning in Grand Forks if North Dakota had trees.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

                        Happy is probably correct -- before 1980 there were very few college hockey players in the NHL. Ken Dryden. Ned Brayden. Tony Esposito.

                        I did a little unofficial sampling of some teams. The 1979 Chicago Blackhawks roster (3 college players out of 33, 1 Eurpoean); 1978-79 Vancouver (1 college player out of 36, 2 eurpoeans); 1978-79 Flyers (4 college players out of 32 zero europeans); 78-79 Maple Leafs (2 college players out of 28, 2 europoeans); 78-79 Red Wings had 5 college players out of 43, two euproeans.


                        These are just samples. Compare that with the number of college players in the NHL today (numbers discussed elsewhere in this thread).

                        BUt I think its dangerous to suppose the the CHL ban made any diffrence, because there is also a an equally low percentage of European players as compared with today's NHL.

                        The Ban has no effect on European players.

                        And yet both NCAA and Euopean players made significant inroads to the NHL after 1980 and certainly huge jumps in the 1990s and 2000s.

                        Why? Was it merely because the NCAA decided to ban CHL players?

                        Or was it more likely because of some huge changes in the game, namely by a singular force of nature known as Wayne Gretzky and his Edmonton Oiler Machine, which emphasized speed and skill over hitting and grinding. The Oilers, and to a lesser extent the Flames, made the game faster, less rugged. This would be a natural fit for college and european players -- for whom fighting and the rough-stuff would be outside of their skill set. This would lead to an increased interest in the college kids.

                        Also, the Eastern Bloc was crumbling -- and eventually fell -- allowing access to the flood of European talent. This also assisted in making the game faster, less-rough-and-tumble. Teams like the Red Wings, Oilers, and Canucks dove heavily into the college and European markets. This would lead more interest in the college kids. The Red Wings in the early 1980's scooped up every college free agent they could, approximately 21 players from the NCAA ranks in a four year period leading up to the Jacques Demers hiring. (Adam Oates being the most notable). The NCAA was deemed by Jimmy Develano as a potentially untapped resource and he took his Red Wings into the college ranks with gusto. The Wings were the first NHL team to hire a full-time scout specifically dedicated to college scouting. And this had nothing to do with teh CHL ban and everything to do with the Wings seeing the game changing, and making a organizational wide committment to find faster players regardless of size -- and college hockey is a wonderful place for undersized speed demons and mature playmakers (like Oates). The Oilers and Flames were also organizations which decided to see what the NCAA had to offer, beyond the occassional goalie (Dryden, Espo).

                        Expansion helped find roster spots, too.

                        Since the College and European numbers look about the same (a little less for the Euopeans) in my very unofficial 1978-79 review. And sine the numbers of college players and european players are close to the same ratio, at much higher percentages today --- I would submit that the CHL ban had nothing to do with whether more NCAA kids play in the NHL or not.

                        In fact, I think the exact opposite: the ban on the CHL palyers is prohibiting much top end talent from coming to play college hockey. The NCAA-Players-In-the-NHL numbers would increase dramatically if the CHL ban was dropped.
                        Last edited by Lakerblue; 08-11-2011, 09:40 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

                          It is interesting how different people view this topic and the consequences of allowing some CHL kids to play NCAA. Face it; the US is now an exporter of hockey talent. US born kids are actually taking CHL roster spots from Canadian kids. Just look at the number of California kids playing in the WHL these days. While some are worried about over-age Canadians taking NCAA roster spots, a case may be made for changing the rule to allow more American kids to play NCAA hockey.

                          I am not in favor of allowing all CHL players to play NCAA hockey. First, if you sign an NHL contract or receive remuneration from either your CHL team or an NHL team, you are clearly a professional. The Hunter brothers paying for your sister’s college is no different from USC and Reggie Bush. I would also limit eligibility to kids who play in the CHL under 18 (or turn 18 during the season). I am most concerned about the really impressionable young kids (15-17) who are told that they are going to be 6’3, 215 lbs and play in the NHL at age 20. These kids lack the maturity and perspective required to realistically assess the probability of these things happening. What happens when, come draft year, they are only 5’10”, 175 lbs? These young kids (and their parents) also fail to understand just how good, “good” is. I would like to see these kids have an opportunity to play NCAA hockey. If these kids are left to linger in the CHL, even with CIS educational money, they are not likely to obtain a college education. On a 25-man CHL roster only one player is expected to make the NHL and only four are expected to obtain a university degree. At age 18, many will find a university degree more appealing (or necessary) than they did at 15 or 16.

                          Allowing some of these kids to retain eligibility will probably change college hockey less than many expect. First, with respect to outbound concerns, how many kids are going to be able to find CHL roster spots. Plenty of USHL, high school, and prep school kids have the skill to play major junior hockey, but I am not sure that they would all be able to find places to play in the CHL. I am sure that there must be some pressure on GMs to take the local Canadian kids. Consequently, you are still going to see quality kids electing to stay and play in the states before college. With respect to inbound issues, people are overstating the size of the pool of players that would realistically consider playing NCAA hockey. First, subtract out the kids that are over 18 or that have signed an NHL contract. Next, subtract out the kids who can’t hack it academically or have no interest in attending college (I am willing to guess that this percentage is MUCH greater than it is in the USHL). Lastly, subtract out the Canadian kids who would be happy to stay and play CIS hockey when their CHL days are over (not everyone, after all, wants to “go away” to college). The threat of hordes of Canadians taking roster spots from American kids is thus grossly overstated. Certain schools won’t recruit ex-CHL players anyway due to existing protectionist pressures.

                          Under such a system, I can imagine that many NHL teams would steer many of their later-round picks (the “project players”) towards NCAA hockey after their draft year. So while we may continue to loose out on the Millers, Murphys or Gibsons, the NCAA will benefit from gaining some less physically mature, skill players.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

                            Originally posted by AVFC View Post
                            It is interesting how different people view this topic and the consequences of allowing some CHL kids to play NCAA. Face it; the US is now an exporter of hockey talent. US born kids are actually taking CHL roster spots from Canadian kids. Just look at the number of California kids playing in the WHL these days. While some are worried about over-age Canadians taking NCAA roster spots, a case may be made for changing the rule to allow more American kids to play NCAA hockey.

                            I am not in favor of allowing all CHL players to play NCAA hockey. First, if you sign an NHL contract or receive remuneration from either your CHL team or an NHL team, you are clearly a professional. The Hunter brothers paying for your sister’s college is no different from USC and Reggie Bush. I would also limit eligibility to kids who play in the CHL under 18 (or turn 18 during the season). I am most concerned about the really impressionable young kids (15-17) who are told that they are going to be 6’3, 215 lbs and play in the NHL at age 20. These kids lack the maturity and perspective required to realistically assess the probability of these things happening. What happens when, come draft year, they are only 5’10”, 175 lbs? These young kids (and their parents) also fail to understand just how good, “good” is. I would like to see these kids have an opportunity to play NCAA hockey. If these kids are left to linger in the CHL, even with CIS educational money, they are not likely to obtain a college education. On a 25-man CHL roster only one player is expected to make the NHL and only four are expected to obtain a university degree. At age 18, many will find a university degree more appealing (or necessary) than they did at 15 or 16.

                            Allowing some of these kids to retain eligibility will probably change college hockey less than many expect. First, with respect to outbound concerns, how many kids are going to be able to find CHL roster spots. Plenty of USHL, high school, and prep school kids have the skill to play major junior hockey, but I am not sure that they would all be able to find places to play in the CHL. I am sure that there must be some pressure on GMs to take the local Canadian kids. Consequently, you are still going to see quality kids electing to stay and play in the states before college. With respect to inbound issues, people are overstating the size of the pool of players that would realistically consider playing NCAA hockey. First, subtract out the kids that are over 18 or that have signed an NHL contract. Next, subtract out the kids who can’t hack it academically or have no interest in attending college (I am willing to guess that this percentage is MUCH greater than it is in the USHL). Lastly, subtract out the Canadian kids who would be happy to stay and play CIS hockey when their CHL days are over (not everyone, after all, wants to “go away” to college). The threat of hordes of Canadians taking roster spots from American kids is thus grossly overstated. Certain schools won’t recruit ex-CHL players anyway due to existing protectionist pressures.

                            Under such a system, I can imagine that many NHL teams would steer many of their later-round picks (the “project players”) towards NCAA hockey after their draft year. So while we may continue to loose out on the Millers, Murphys or Gibsons, the NCAA will benefit from gaining some less physically mature, skill players.

                            Excellent post.

                            I think this is the most reasoned posting on this topic. I really like the compromise which would allow players under the age of 18 to still save their NCAA eligibilty. Personally, I think it just increases the number of talented kids who will paly college hockey, and that is a good thing. Furthermore, it address the problem of forcing immature young men (and lets be honest, star-crossed, over-hyped immature parents) from being forced into a premature decision.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

                              Originally posted by Lakerblue View Post
                              Happy is probably correct -- before 1980 there were very few college hockey players in the NHL. Ken Dryden. Ned Brayden. Tony Esposito.

                              I did a little unofficial sampling of some teams. The 1979 Chicago Blackhawks roster (3 college players out of 33, 1 Eurpoean); 1978-79 Vancouver (1 college player out of 36, 2 eurpoeans); 1978-79 Flyers (4 college players out of 32 zero europeans); 78-79 Maple Leafs (2 college players out of 28, 2 europoeans); 78-79 Red Wings had 5 college players out of 43, two euproeans.


                              These are just samples. Compare that with the number of college players in the NHL today (numbers discussed elsewhere in this thread).

                              BUt I think its dangerous to suppose the the CHL ban made any diffrence, because there is also a an equally low percentage of European players as compared with today's NHL.

                              The Ban has no effect on European players.

                              And yet both NCAA and Euopean players made significant inroads to the NHL after 1980 and certainly huge jumps in the 1990s and 2000s.

                              Why? Was it merely because the NCAA decided to ban CHL players?

                              Or was it more likely because of some huge changes in the game, namely by a singular force of nature known as Wayne Gretzky and his Edmonton Oiler Machine, which emphasized speed and skill over hitting and grinding. The Oilers, and to a lesser extent the Flames, made the game faster, less rugged. This would be a natural fit for college and european players -- for whom fighting and the rough-stuff would be outside of their skill set. This would lead to an increased interest in the college kids.

                              Also, the Eastern Bloc was crumbling -- and eventually fell -- allowing access to the flood of European talent. This also assisted in making the game faster, less-rough-and-tumble. Teams like the Red Wings, Oilers, and Canucks dove heavily into the college and European markets. This would lead more interest in the college kids. The Red Wings in the early 1980's scooped up every college free agent they could, approximately 21 players from the NCAA ranks in a four year period leading up to the Jacques Demers hiring. (Adam Oates being the most notable). The NCAA was deemed by Jimmy Develano as a potentially untapped resource and he took his Red Wings into the college ranks with gusto. The Wings were the first NHL team to hire a full-time scout specifically dedicated to college scouting. And this had nothing to do with teh CHL ban and everything to do with the Wings seeing the game changing, and making a organizational wide committment to find faster players regardless of size -- and college hockey is a wonderful place for undersized speed demons and mature playmakers (like Oates). The Oilers and Flames were also organizations which decided to see what the NCAA had to offer, beyond the occassional goalie (Dryden, Espo).

                              Expansion helped find roster spots, too.

                              Since the College and European numbers look about the same (a little less for the Euopeans) in my very unofficial 1978-79 review. And sine the numbers of college players and european players are close to the same ratio, at much higher percentages today --- I would submit that the CHL ban had nothing to do with whether more NCAA kids play in the NHL or not.

                              In fact, I think the exact opposite: the ban on the CHL palyers is prohibiting much top end talent from coming to play college hockey. The NCAA-Players-In-the-NHL numbers would increase dramatically if the CHL ban was dropped.

                              Very rational, well-written, and non-accusatory post. Thank you. While I don't agree with everything you said, you do bring up a lot of good points that have merit. As soon as I have more time, I will respond in more detail with my thoughts, but wanted to thank you for your changed approach to debating this topic

                              Comment


                              • Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

                                Originally posted by AVFC View Post
                                It is interesting how different people view this topic and the consequences of allowing some CHL kids to play NCAA. Face it; the US is now an exporter of hockey talent. US born kids are actually taking CHL roster spots from Canadian kids. Just look at the number of California kids playing in the WHL these days. While some are worried about over-age Canadians taking NCAA roster spots, a case may be made for changing the rule to allow more American kids to play NCAA hockey.

                                I am not in favor of allowing all CHL players to play NCAA hockey. First, if you sign an NHL contract or receive remuneration from either your CHL team or an NHL team, you are clearly a professional. The Hunter brothers paying for your sister’s college is no different from USC and Reggie Bush. I would also limit eligibility to kids who play in the CHL under 18 (or turn 18 during the season). I am most concerned about the really impressionable young kids (15-17) who are told that they are going to be 6’3, 215 lbs and play in the NHL at age 20. These kids lack the maturity and perspective required to realistically assess the probability of these things happening. What happens when, come draft year, they are only 5’10”, 175 lbs? These young kids (and their parents) also fail to understand just how good, “good” is. I would like to see these kids have an opportunity to play NCAA hockey. If these kids are left to linger in the CHL, even with CIS educational money, they are not likely to obtain a college education. On a 25-man CHL roster only one player is expected to make the NHL and only four are expected to obtain a university degree. At age 18, many will find a university degree more appealing (or necessary) than they did at 15 or 16.

                                Allowing some of these kids to retain eligibility will probably change college hockey less than many expect. First, with respect to outbound concerns, how many kids are going to be able to find CHL roster spots. Plenty of USHL, high school, and prep school kids have the skill to play major junior hockey, but I am not sure that they would all be able to find places to play in the CHL. I am sure that there must be some pressure on GMs to take the local Canadian kids. Consequently, you are still going to see quality kids electing to stay and play in the states before college. With respect to inbound issues, people are overstating the size of the pool of players that would realistically consider playing NCAA hockey. First, subtract out the kids that are over 18 or that have signed an NHL contract. Next, subtract out the kids who can’t hack it academically or have no interest in attending college (I am willing to guess that this percentage is MUCH greater than it is in the USHL). Lastly, subtract out the Canadian kids who would be happy to stay and play CIS hockey when their CHL days are over (not everyone, after all, wants to “go away” to college). The threat of hordes of Canadians taking roster spots from American kids is thus grossly overstated. Certain schools won’t recruit ex-CHL players anyway due to existing protectionist pressures.

                                Under such a system, I can imagine that many NHL teams would steer many of their later-round picks (the “project players”) towards NCAA hockey after their draft year. So while we may continue to loose out on the Millers, Murphys or Gibsons, the NCAA will benefit from gaining some less physically mature, skill players.
                                I like a lot of the points you made. I think change will be a lot more palatable if restrictions are placed on the eligability of CHL players instead of just opening the flood gates (and I know one of your points was that it wouldn't be a "flood" of players, but I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it). For instance, I think people would be much more receptive of the kid who played his 16-17 year-old years in the CHL and then wanted to move to the NCAA than they would the kid who played until his eligability in the CHL ran out (regardless of nationality) and then wanted to move to the NCAA.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X