The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

[Ralph Baer]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

Sunday update.

                   Current Holder         Next Defense
The Belt           Michigan               Notre Dame 03/09-11/2012
Alternate Belt     Michigan State         Miami 03/09-11/2012
AHA Belt           Mercyhurst             Holy Cross 03/09-11/2012
CCHA Belt          Michigan               Notre Dame 03/09-11/2012
CCHA Alternate     Western Michigan       Lake Superior State 03/09-11/2012
CCHA Alternate 2   Michigan State         Miami 03/09-11/2012
ECAC Belt          Rensselaer             Union 03/09-11/2012
HEA Belt           Boston College         Massachusetts 03/09-11/2012
WCHA Belt          Minnesota              Alaska Anchorage 03/09-11/2012
Ivy Belt           Yale                   Harvard 03/09-11/2012
B1G                Michigan               TBD
NCHC Belt          St Cloud State         Nebraska Omaha 03/09-11/2012
New England Belt   Boston College         Massachusetts 03/09-11/2012
Massachusetts Belt Merrimack              TBD
Michigan Belt      Michigan               TBD
Michigan Alternate Western Michigan       Lake Superior State 03/09-11/2012      
Michigan Alt 2     Northern Michigan      TBD
Minnesota Belt     Minnesota              TBD
New York Belt      Rensselaer             Union 03/09-11/2012

Belts don't transfer until the end of a multigame playoff series.
Corrections are appreciated.

[JF_Gophers]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

So we are pretty much guaranteed that the Alternate belt will be unified with The Belt this weekend correct?

[quack]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

So we are pretty much guaranteed that the Alternate belt will be unified with The Belt this weekend correct?

Next weekend in the CCHA semi-finals or championship game, but not this weekend.

I see Northern Michigan's alternate belt listed as next season. That's probably correct, but I'd love to play around with the pairwise projector to see if they still have a possibility (however unlikely) of making the tournament.

[Ralph Baer]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

Next weekend in the CCHA semi-finals or championship game, but not this weekend.

I see Northern Michigan's alternate belt listed as next season. That's probably correct, but I'd love to play around with the pairwise projector to see if they still have a possibility (however unlikely) of making the tournament.

Good point about NMU. I fixed that.

[Numbers]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

I am a little out of the loop, here. What are the rules governing alternative belts and CCHA shootouts? I assume that is the reason for the alternate belts. Thanks.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

I am a little out of the loop, here. What are the rules governing alternative belts and CCHA shootouts? I assume that is the reason for the alternate belts. Thanks.

An alternate belt is created for a shootout. The challenger gets the alternate, since in a tie, the belt would not transfer.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

Ralph, I'm a little curious... how long has Miami, Wisconsin, or Sacred Heart held the Red/White Belt?

[Ralph Baer]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

Ralph, I'm a little curious... how long has Miami, Wisconsin, or Sacred Heart held the Red/White Belt?

Here's the history:

Red And White Belt

01/31/1908 Cornell defeated Rensselaer
01/29/1909 Rensselaer
02/16/1924 Cornell
01/10/1925 Boston University
03/14/1953 Rensselaer
03/04/1960 Boston University
12/12/1960 Rensselaer
01/02/1964 Cornell
12/04/1968 Rensselaer
03/04/1969 Boston University
03/07/1969 Cornell
12/01/1970 Rensselaer
01/04/1971 Wisconsin
03/16/1972 Boston University
01/03/1973 Rensselaer
02/17/1973 Boston University
12/29/1973 Rensselaer
02/16/1974 Boston University
01/06/1979 Cornell
02/13/1980 Rensselaer
02/07/1981 Cornell
12/03/1983 Boston University
03/10/1984 Rensselaer
03/01/1986 Cornell
12/28/1986 Wisconsin
01/13/1988 Boston University
12/10/1988 Cornell
12/29/1988 Boston University
01/06/1989 Wisconsin
12/29/1992 Boston University
11/06/1993 Rensselaer
10/28/1994 Boston University
10/17/1998 Rensselaer
02/19/2000 Cornell
11/04/2000 Sacred Heart
02/21/2003 Miami
02/22/2003 Sacred Heart
01/24/2004 Rensselaer
02/20/2004 Cornell
02/24/2006 Rensselaer
11/17/2006 Sacred Heart
10/20/2007 Rensselaer
12/15/2007 Miami
04/11/2009 Boston University
12/11/2009 Rensselaer
01/14/2011 Cornell
11/26/2011 Boston University

[Ralph Baer]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

An alternate belt is created for a shootout. The challenger gets the alternate, since in a tie, the belt would not transfer.

That is correct. I was thinking that maybe we are doing this a bit wrong for shootouts. If someone wins in a shootout they get an Alternate Belt. That's fine, but it may not make sense to award a second Alternate Belt to another team that wins in a shootout before the two existing Belts are unified.

That is because the Alternate Belt is going to the team that wins by any means, including shootouts, and if that Belt already exists, it may not make sense to give another to a second team winning a shootout.

I will leave things as is because I am lazy, but I am interested in opinions, assuming that what I said was understandable.

[Numbers]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

That is correct. I was thinking that maybe we are doing this a bit wrong for shootouts. If someone wins in a shootout they get an Alternate Belt. That's fine, but it may not make sense to award a second Alternate Belt to another team that wins in a shootout before the two existing Belts are unified.

That is because the Alternate Belt is going to the team that wins by any means, including shootouts, and if that Belt already exists, it may not make sense to give another to a second team winning a shootout.

I will leave things as is because I am lazy, but I am interested in opinions, assuming that what I said was understandable.

I agree with this new idea. Alternative Belt for shootout wins cannot be split again for shootout win. This means that there is more record keeping necessary. You may need a notation like "Alternate Belt (SO)" to distinguish from Alternate Belts due to other factors such as missed playoff competition.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

I agree with this new idea. Alternative Belt for shootout wins cannot be split again for shootout win. This means that there is more record keeping necessary. You may need a notation like "Alternate Belt (SO)" to distinguish from Alternate Belts due to other factors such as missed playoff competition.

Considering Hockey East is the only league that hasn't instituted the Union Rule and they don't have shootouts, it should be obvious where the alternates exist. Here's what I'm thinking:

An alternate belt ONLY gets created for shootouts if the team who is challenging for the belt "wins" by virtue of a shootout. The tie rule remains in effect, but the consideration is given to the team who "won". No alternates if the team who has the belt wins the shootout.

[Numbers]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

Considering Hockey East is the only league that hasn't instituted the Union Rule and they don't have shootouts, it should be obvious where the alternates exist. Here's what I'm thinking:

An alternate belt ONLY gets created for shootouts if the team who is challenging for the belt "wins" by virtue of a shootout. The tie rule remains in effect, but the consideration is given to the team who "won". No alternates if the team who has the belt wins the shootout.

FlagDUDE - a couple of points.
1 - Shootouts exist in holiday tournaments as well. Some of the belts here can be on the line in those tourneys.
2 - When the conferences change in a year, there could be many alternative belts floating around.

3 - What is the Union Rule? Is it something like "All conference teams qualify for the conference tourney?"

and, 4 - I thought the rule for shootouts already was, "Alternate Belt if the challenger wins in shootout." Reason being: No belt changes hands in a tie. Game ends in a tie, so no belt change. Then, shootout is played to satisfy holiday tourney rules, or CCHA rules. NCAA does not count results. But, challenger wins shootout. Alternate Belt.

I thought Ralph was thinking about a situation where, say, NoMich has an alternate CCHA belt, and then loses a shootout to, say, Bowling Green. No need for a 2nd alternate belt here, because NoMich has the alternate belt as a result of winning the SO already. So, for that alternate belt, SO wins change the belt. So, if NoMich loses a shootout, they have to lose the Alternate Belt as well.

If that makes sense?

[Numbers]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

Flag,

Sorry. I looked at your post again, and it sounds like I was preaching to the choir. Let me clarify my comment about more record keeping:

I was thinking about a case where an Alternate Belt existed for reasons other than shootout. Like, Vermont ends the season with the HE belt but does not qualify for the postseason, so the postseason champ gets an Alternate Belt. (Can this happen for the regional belts???). This belt supposedly could be split if there were a shootout situation?

Now, let's say NoMich takes the CCHA belt in a shooutout. If NoMich loses a shootout to a different opponent the next week, they lose that belt. It can't be split again, because its rules are "SO wins count as wins".

Oh, and, by the way, what is the rule if a CCHA team has "The Belt," and loses a shootout in CCHA play? Alternate Belt?

Thanks again.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

FlagDUDE - a couple of points.
1 - Shootouts exist in holiday tournaments as well. Some of the belts here can be on the line in those tourneys.
2 - When the conferences change in a year, there could be many alternative belts floating around.

3 - What is the Union Rule? Is it something like "All conference teams qualify for the conference tourney?"

and, 4 - I thought the rule for shootouts already was, "Alternate Belt if the challenger wins in shootout." Reason being: No belt changes hands in a tie. Game ends in a tie, so no belt change. Then, shootout is played to satisfy holiday tourney rules, or CCHA rules. NCAA does not count results. But, challenger wins shootout. Alternate Belt.

I thought Ralph was thinking about a situation where, say, NoMich has an alternate CCHA belt, and then loses a shootout to, say, Bowling Green. No need for a 2nd alternate belt here, because NoMich has the alternate belt as a result of winning the SO already. So, for that alternate belt, SO wins change the belt. So, if NoMich loses a shootout, they have to lose the Alternate Belt as well.

If that makes sense?

Flag,

Sorry. I looked at your post again, and it sounds like I was preaching to the choir. Let me clarify my comment about more record keeping:

I was thinking about a case where an Alternate Belt existed for reasons other than shootout. Like, Vermont ends the season with the HE belt but does not qualify for the postseason, so the postseason champ gets an Alternate Belt. (Can this happen for the regional belts???). This belt supposedly could be split if there were a shootout situation?

Now, let's say NoMich takes the CCHA belt in a shooutout. If NoMich loses a shootout to a different opponent the next week, they lose that belt. It can't be split again, because its rules are "SO wins count as wins".

Oh, and, by the way, what is the rule if a CCHA team has "The Belt," and loses a shootout in CCHA play? Alternate Belt?

Thanks again.

In holiday tournaments, the official record shows a tie. The NCAA does not recognize shootouts (although the league does); I'm not sure how RPIndex/PWR is affected. No alternate belt is necessary.

The Union Rule is where all teams in a conference make the playoffs. Union College was a perennial basement dweller in the ECAC prior to this rule (although they now enjoy some regular season success).

That can't happen for regional belts, as Niagara had held the New York Belt for the rest of the year after RPI coughed it up. Eventually they'll play each other again (although RPI has NEVER played Canisius, who is in Buffalo).

[Ralph Baer]

Re: The College Hockey Championship Belt Part III

Flag,

Sorry. I looked at your post again, and it sounds like I was preaching to the choir. Let me clarify my comment about more record keeping:

I was thinking about a case where an Alternate Belt existed for reasons other than shootout. Like, Vermont ends the season with the HE belt but does not qualify for the postseason, so the postseason champ gets an Alternate Belt. (Can this happen for the regional belts???). This belt supposedly could be split if there were a shootout situation?

Now, let's say NoMich takes the CCHA belt in a shooutout. If NoMich loses a shootout to a different opponent the next week, they lose that belt. It can't be split again, because its rules are "SO wins count as wins".

Oh, and, by the way, what is the rule if a CCHA team has "The Belt," and loses a shootout in CCHA play? Alternate Belt?

Thanks again.

Alternate Belts for other reasons (basically bottom two HEA teams or UAH having a Belt) aren't a problem.

What you are saying is half of what I was suggesting. The other half is that if, as you wrote, NMU has an Alternate Belt from beating say LSSU in shootout, then if say the next week BGSU beats LSSU they won't get a second Alternate because the shootout Alternate is already somewhere. A problem would occur however if there was then a shootout in an in-season tourney since that could be considered different from CCHA shootouts.