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joecct
07-15-2011, 11:30 AM
Gang

It appears that our brethren over in D-I land are in a bit of a quandry. Are two sections of Division I by-law 20 in conflict with each other??

Revised by-law 20.4.1.1 will say on 8/1/11:


A member of Division II or Division III may have a sport classified in Division I, provided the sport was so classified during the 2010-11 academic year. Such a classification shall continue until the institution fails to conduct the sport in Division I in any following academic year.

While 20.8 (unchanged by 2010-100) says:

20.8.2 Division II options when no Division ii Championship is Conducted. An active member institution that holds membership in Division II is eligible to compete in the Division I championship in those sports for which no championship is conducted in Division II. The Division II institution shall declare its intention to compete by June 1. This declaration of intent shall be effective for a minimum of three years. (Revised:
1/10/91 effective 9/1/92)
20.8.2.1 Participation in Division I Championship. To be eligible for the Division I championship in such a sport, the Division II member institution is required to meet all Division I institutional and individual eligibility requirements and may use Division I financial aid limitations in that sport as permitted under Bylaw 20.9.1.1. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 9/1/92)
20.8.2.2 Exception for Maximum Number of Contests or Dates of Competition. A Division II member institution that is eligible for a championship in another division because there is no championship in that sport in its membership division shall apply the maximum number of contests or dates of competition in the sport involved that applies to the division in which it declares its intention to compete.

As I read this, no current D-II (or III) school who is not playing up is "stuck" in their current division. But 20.8 says that a D-II school can play in the D-I championship.

So, if Minnesota-Moorhead (D-II) forms a hockey team, they are a D-II program, but can play for the D-I championship. BUT, since games outside of your division do not count for selection criteria, any games played by MSU-Mo or against MSU-Mo can't be used for selection criteria????

I'm confused or I think the NCAA right hand did not look @ the left hand and created a mell of a hess.

Opinions?

Yes, I could have put this on the D-I board, but the trolls would drag it under the water quickly. Here, we have intelligent posters who know what they're saying.

norm1909
07-15-2011, 12:45 PM
Gang

It appears that our brethren over in D-I land are in a bit of a quandry. Are two sections of Division I by-law 20 in conflict with each other??

Revised by-law 20.4.1.1 will say on 8/1/11:



While 20.8 (unchanged by 2010-100) says:


As I read this, no current D-II (or III) school who is not playing up is "stuck" in their current division. But 20.8 says that a D-II school can play in the D-I championship.

So, if Minnesota-Moorhead (D-II) forms a hockey team, they are a D-II program, but can play for the D-I championship. BUT, since games outside of your division do not count for selection criteria, any games played by MSU-Mo or against MSU-Mo can't be used for selection criteria????

I'm confused or I think the NCAA right hand did not look @ the left hand and created a mell of a hess.

Opinions?

Yes, I could have put this on the D-I board, but the trolls would drag it under the water quickly. Here, we have intelligent posters who know what they're saying.

I'm not sure your point on mentioning "if Minnesota-Moorhead (D-II) forms a hockey team", the team would NOT be eligible to "play for the D-I championship" because they were not "grandfathered" in under Revised by-law 20.4.1.1 Additionally, even those grandfathered must continually field a team to maintain their grandfathered status. The two are not in conflict with one another, in as much as 20.8 does not claim that 'Division II status where no Championship is Conducted' status is the exclusive qualifier for a team to be eligible for the Division I championship, hense, effectively, 20.8 pertains only to those who have grandfathered eligibilty under 20.4.1.1. --- IMO

Tweedle Dee
07-15-2011, 01:48 PM
My interpretation of these seemingly contradicting rules is that they are both valid and don't contradict one another. 20.4.1.1 stops play-ups from here on out if there is a championship. So if you in DII/DIII and can play for a NC you are stuck unless you move the whole program. 20.8.2 in simplest terms states that if there is no NC for your sport you can play-up. In my interpretation since there is no NC for DII men's ice hockey they can play-up to DI if they so choose. If there was a NC for DII they couldn't play-up to DI.

Dyce
07-15-2011, 05:18 PM
I'd have to go with the last two posters on this one. 20.8.2 became effective in September of '92, a season before the Big DII-DIII Split and the temporary return of the DII championship. As such, it appears to be included as a sort of "safety valve" against the DII championship being scrapped again (as it was). Since it allowed DII playups to submit a letter of intent to compete for the DI championship in the upcoming season as late as June 1st, they wouldn't have to worry about getting mired in classification issues that could produce multiple seasons without the possibility of playing for a championship. It's pretty much a special-case rule made to smooth over an odd situation.

20.4.1.1, then, does exactly what it says, without any interference from 20.8.2: DII/III schools already fielding a DI sport may continue to do so, while DII/DIII schools who hadn't played up by last season may not.

NUProf
07-15-2011, 07:39 PM
As I read it, it says that if a school declares they want to play for the DI championship in a sport for which there is not a DII championship, they can. No ifs ands or buts.



20.8.2 Division II options when no Division ii Championship is Conducted. An active member institution that holds membership in Division II is eligible to compete in the Division I championship in those sports for which no championship is conducted in Division II.

They aren't really playing up, they are declaring "we don't have a National Championship in our sport, therefore we will play for the DI Championship." Technically they aren't playing up if the follow that rule - they are utilizing an option available to them. They wouldn't be considered DI programs, says the rule, but they are allowed to follow DI financial aid regulations, and must also adhere to DI eligibility requirements. There is no conflict, but it creates an option that the elitist DI powers would not like. It also means that the whole NE-10 could make such a declaration.

joecct
07-15-2011, 07:51 PM
As I read it, it says that if a school declares they want to play for the DI championship in a sport for which there is not a DII championship, they can. No ifs ands or buts.



They aren't really playing up, they are declaring "we don't have a National Championship in our sport, therefore we will play for the DI Championship." Technically they aren't playing up if the follow that rule - they are utilizing an option available to them. They wouldn't be considered DI programs, says the rule, but they are allowed to follow DI financial aid regulations, and must also adhere to DI eligibility requirements. There is no conflict, but it creates an option that the elitist DI powers would not like. It also means that the whole NE-10 could make such a declaration.

Well why don't they? :D That would solve all the East D-III problems, wouldn't it? It would be a 10 team league (less the drops) and have an AQ. :D