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cooperalls
05-18-2011, 09:07 AM
With the Big Ten Conference rapidly approaching, will their be a major conference realignment in the CCHA and WCHA?

I see the possibility of the CCHA looking like this:

Notre Dame
Miami
W. Michigan
Ferris State
Northern Michigan
Lake Superior
Bowling Green
Alabama Huntsville
Michigan Tech

WCHA

North Dakota
U. Nebraska Omaha
Denver
U Minn Duluth
Col. College
St. Cloud
Bemidji
Minn. State
Alaska Fairbanks
Alaska Anchorage

FlagDUDE08
05-18-2011, 09:11 AM
Sorry, Red Cloud, but it must be done...

http://lolpics.se/pics/482.jpg

davyd83
05-18-2011, 10:39 AM
With the Big Ten Conference rapidly approaching, will their be a major conference realignment in the CCHA and WCHA?

I see the possibility of the CCHA looking like this:

Notre Dame
Miami
W. Michigan
Ferris State
Northern Michigan
Lake Superior
Bowling Green
Alabama Huntsville
Michigan Tech

WCHA

North Dakota
U. Nebraska Omaha
Denver
U Minn Duluth
Col. College
St. Cloud
Bemidji
Minn. State
Alaska Fairbanks
Alaska Anchorage

You won't see both Alaska schools in the same conference. Tech has no interest in moving to the CCHA and the CCHA membership is not likely to change their mind with Huntsville due to travel concerns, since it's either a flight or a second day bus trip for nearly all members.

fangers
05-18-2011, 11:14 AM
You won't see both Alaska schools in the same conference. Tech has no interest in moving to the CCHA and the CCHA membership is not likely to change their mind with Huntsville due to travel concerns, since it's either a flight or a second day bus trip for nearly all members.

That's a little inaccurate - it will be for some (NMU, LSSU, Alaska), but not "nearly all". And it looks like LSSU has agreed to a home/home deal for the next two seasons, so they are willing to make the trip.

davyd83
05-18-2011, 01:41 PM
Really? Here are the mileages: NMU 933 (18 1/2 hrs), LSSU 932 (18 1/2 hrs), Ferris 744 (16 hrs), Western Mich 640 (13 1/2), Bowling Green 564 (11), Notre Dame 541 (11), Miami 414 (8). Now, if you've ever been on one of these trips on the bus, you know that teams very rarely will spend more than 9 hours in a day in transit. So only Miami falls under that number and Bowling Green and Notre Dame are a stretch there. So yes, second day travel or flying are pretty much the only options for all but 3 of the CCHA schools which will remain.

moose97
05-18-2011, 01:58 PM
Really? Here are the mileages: NMU 933 (18 1/2 hrs), LSSU 932 (18 1/2 hrs), Ferris 744 (16 hrs), Western Mich 640 (13 1/2), Bowling Green 564 (11), Notre Dame 541 (11), Miami 414 (8). Now, if you've ever been on one of these trips on the bus, you know that teams very rarely will spend more than 9 hours in a day in transit. So only Miami falls under that number and Bowling Green and Notre Dame are a stretch there. So yes, second day travel or flying are pretty much the only options for all but 3 of the CCHA schools which will remain.

Really? Alaska is a flight for EVERYONE, so ignore them for this discussion. So, of the remaining 7, 3 are within a day's travel - in other words, nearly half.

And those same 3 schools are currently making trips to the UP at roughly 9-12 hours - right on the edge of "OMFG that's too far to even consider adding to the league" according to you. Right?

This whole argument is getting old. Please make note of this post (and the follow-up discussion) before talking about travel and costs re: UAH...

http://board.uscho.com/showthread.php?85141-Save-Uah-Hockey!&p=5136958&viewfull=1#post5136958

davyd83
05-18-2011, 02:10 PM
Really? Alaska is a flight for EVERYONE, so ignore them for this discussion. So, of the remaining 7, 3 are within a day's travel - in other words, nearly half.

And those same 3 schools are currently making trips to the UP at roughly 9-12 hours - right on the edge of "OMFG that's too far to even consider adding to the league" according to you. Right?

This whole argument is getting old. Please make note of this post (and the follow-up discussion) before talking about travel and costs re: UAH...

http://board.uscho.com/showthread.php?85141-Save-Uah-Hockey!&p=5136958&viewfull=1#post5136958

Moose, Miami and Notre Dame make their trip to NMU a two day journey. Ohio State also does the same in the current configuration. Bowling Green has been known to make it a partial second day as well. The bottom line is that only Miami can make the trip to Huntsville within a standard day's travel. I'm far from opposed to Huntsville joining the CCHA. It's a great hockey town. The arena is a good place to see a game. Throw in a trip to Dreamland BBQ and my friends from my Birmingham hockey days coming up for the series, and I would love to see Huntsville in the league, and I'm all for Huntsville's inclusion. But the reality is that nearly all CCHA teams voted against accepting Huntsville due to the travel involved. What I would like to see happen here and what the reality are two vastly different things.

SCSU Euro
05-18-2011, 02:51 PM
I too feel that geography should dictate all, so let me derail this conversation with my proposed NFL realignment divisions

Midwest: Chicago, Detroit, Green Bay, Minnesota (keeps Black and Blue Division intact)
Southeast: Atlanta, Jacksonville, Miami, Tampa Bay (3 Florida teams lumped with Georgia's sole team)
West Coast: Oakland, San Diego, San Fransisco, Seattle (3 Cali teams with Seattle; like this more than giving them Arizona and putting Seattle in with DEN, DAL and HOU)
Southwest: Arizona, Dallas, Houston, New Orleans (Two Texas teams in same division, all warmer weather teams keeps things pretty fair come winter and I hear Texas and Louisiana don't like each other)
Central: Denver, Indianapolis, Kansas City, St. Louis (Puts Missouri teams together, wouldn't be horribly upset to swap New Orleans with Denver but I prefer keeping Bronco-Chief rivalry in tact)
New England: Buffalo, New England, New York Giants, New York Jets (3 New York teams and Boston are most the four teams all in one corner, pretty easy)
Atlantic: Baltimore, Carolina, Tennessee, Washington (Maryland teams together, basically the other two were remainders)
Rust Belt: Cincinnati, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh (Has AFC North gain Philly, and people from Philly hate everyone, but particularly people from these three cities. Added bonus: someone gets a rusty belt and its kept by the division winner each year)

You may say "Euro, why are you wasting our time with this?" but I say anyone who starts threads based on what they're crossing their fingers and hoping for's time is pretty worthless to begin with. Also, Goodell doesn't have to deal with any team's gaining extra game exemptions due to being non-continental, the McNaughton owners, or a Southern school nobody seems to want, so I'd say that this has a better chance of passing than the proposed alignment that started this thread.

FlagDUDE08
05-18-2011, 02:58 PM
I too feel that geography should dictate all, so let me derail this conversation with my proposed NFL realignment divisions

Midwest: Chicago, Detroit, Green Bay, Minnesota (keeps Black and Blue Division intact)
Southeast: Atlanta, Jacksonville, Miami, Tampa Bay (3 Florida teams lumped with Georgia's sole team)
West Coast: Oakland, San Diego, San Fransisco, Seattle (3 Cali teams with Seattle; like this more than giving them Arizona and putting Seattle in with DEN, DAL and HOU)
Southwest: Arizona, Dallas, Houston, New Orleans (Two Texas teams in same division, all warmer weather teams keeps things pretty fair come winter and I hear Texas and Louisiana don't like each other)
Central: Denver, Indianapolis, Kansas City, St. Louis (Puts Missouri teams together, wouldn't be horribly upset to swap New Orleans with Denver but I prefer keeping Bronco-Chief rivalry in tact)
New England: Buffalo, New England, New York Giants, New York Jets (3 New York teams and Boston are most the four teams all in one corner, pretty easy)
Atlantic: Baltimore, Carolina, Tennessee, Washington (Maryland teams together, basically the other two were remainders)
Rust Belt: Cincinnati, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh (Has AFC North gain Philly, and people from Philly hate everyone, but particularly people from these three cities. Added bonus: someone gets a rusty belt and its kept by the division winner each year)

You may say "Euro, why are you wasting our time with this?" but I say anyone who starts threads based on what they're crossing their fingers and hoping for's time is pretty worthless to begin with. Also, Goodell doesn't have to deal with any team's gaining extra game exemptions due to being non-continental, the McNaughton owners, or a Southern school nobody seems to want, so I'd say that this has a better chance of passing than the proposed alignment that started this thread.

I'm sorry, but there is only ONE New York team there. The Giants and the Jets play in New Jersey!! And if there's only one New England team, how in the heck can you call it a New England conference? Not to mention, if you're doing it geographically, putting Philly in the NE conference and Buffalo in the Rust Belt conference makes a heck of a lot more sense.

fangers
05-18-2011, 02:59 PM
Really? Here are the mileages: NMU 933 (18 1/2 hrs), LSSU 932 (18 1/2 hrs), Ferris 744 (16 hrs), Western Mich 640 (13 1/2), Bowling Green 564 (11), Notre Dame 541 (11), Miami 414 (8). Now, if you've ever been on one of these trips on the bus, you know that teams very rarely will spend more than 9 hours in a day in transit. So only Miami falls under that number and Bowling Green and Notre Dame are a stretch there. So yes, second day travel or flying are pretty much the only options for all but 3 of the CCHA schools which will remain.

Well, FSU did it last year, wonder how they broke it up. UAH bussed to FSU, MSU, BGSU, OSU last season, typically leaving on Wednesday evening.

davyd83
05-18-2011, 03:35 PM
One other thing to take into account, especially for Ferris, NMU and LSSU, is the 48 hour rule. You cannot leave more than 48 hours prior to the start of the first game, with travel to Alaska and Hawaii being the exception. So for an NMU series at Huntsville with a 7:05 CT Friday start in Huntsville, NMU couldn't leave Marquette prior to 8:05 ET on Wednesday. Even Ferris, leaving Big Rapids at 8:05 on a Wednesday and going as far as Indy, getting in around 12:30 am, then up and on the road by 8 am the next morning, they still have another 12 hours to go.

moose97
05-18-2011, 04:34 PM
One other thing to take into account, especially for Ferris, NMU and LSSU, is the 48 hour rule. You cannot leave more than 48 hours prior to the start of the first game, with travel to Alaska and Hawaii being the exception. So for an NMU series at Huntsville with a 7:05 CT Friday start in Huntsville, NMU couldn't leave Marquette prior to 8:05 ET on Wednesday. Even Ferris, leaving Big Rapids at 8:05 on a Wednesday and going as far as Indy, getting in around 12:30 am, then up and on the road by 8 am the next morning, they still have another 12 hours to go.

OMG... So they would have to fly? That would be terrible. MTU has to fly to CC and Denver - and pay for it. BSU this year has to fly to UAA, CC and DU (plus CHOSE to play @ Miami OOC).

Please stop. It's fine if the CCHA wanted to save money by eliminating travel to UNO and not replace it with UAH, but then they should have had the balls to come out and say so. And to say that cost savings was more important than "saving" UAH. Instead, all we get is, "UAH is too far away" and "what about the 48 hour rule" when clearly none of that is true.

SCSU Euro
05-18-2011, 06:18 PM
I'm sorry, but there is only ONE New York team there. The Giants and the Jets play in New Jersey!! And if there's only one New England team, how in the heck can you call it a New England conference? Not to mention, if you're doing it geographically, putting Philly in the NE conference and Buffalo in the Rust Belt conference makes a heck of a lot more sense.

Finally, somebody who is talking about something important in this thread. :)

I meant New York in name, plus, people from New York CHEER for the Jets and Giants. Nobody cheers for the Bills, and they'll soon be in Toronto, so that's fixed. Besides, how could you not want Philly and Pittsburgh playing each other twice a year? And I wasn't suggesting CALLING it the New England division, just pointing out where everyone is.

FlagDUDE08
05-18-2011, 07:22 PM
Finally, somebody who is talking about something important in this thread. :)

I meant New York in name, plus, people from New York CHEER for the Jets and Giants. Nobody cheers for the Bills, and they'll soon be in Toronto, so that's fixed. Besides, how could you not want Philly and Pittsburgh playing each other twice a year? And I wasn't suggesting CALLING it the New England division, just pointing out where everyone is.

Buffalo, Orchard Park specifically, is at least 6 hours from New England, and that's just the border, we're not talking about Foxboro. But, seeing as how you've already ticked off not only me, but most of the RIT fans as well... ;)

Plus, New York in name only. They're still not from New York. So much for the New Jersey Giants and the New Jersey Jets.

SCSU Euro
05-18-2011, 07:26 PM
Buffalo, Orchard Park specifically, is at least 6 hours from New England, and that's just the border, we're not talking about Foxboro. But, seeing as how you've already ticked off not only me, but most of the RIT fans as well... ;)

You come up with a proposal then, mine was based mostly on geography but I factored in rivalries. I wanted to keep the Cincinnati-Cleveland, Baltimore-Washington and Pittsburgh-Philadelphia rivalries together. So you're suggesting we just swap Philly and Buffalo. (SIGH) I GUESS Philly fans hate New Yorkers too :(

davyd83
05-18-2011, 07:29 PM
OMG... So they would have to fly? That would be terrible. MTU has to fly to CC and Denver - and pay for it. BSU this year has to fly to UAA, CC and DU (plus CHOSE to play @ Miami OOC).

Please stop. It's fine if the CCHA wanted to save money by eliminating travel to UNO and not replace it with UAH, but then they should have had the balls to come out and say so. And to say that cost savings was more important than "saving" UAH. Instead, all we get is, "UAH is too far away" and "what about the 48 hour rule" when clearly none of that is true. Several people from the CCHA stated travel concerns as a factor in their no votes. And when you look at CCHA revenues vs WCHA revenues, there is a big difference. Each school generates more in tournament revenue by a long shot. And when you talk ticket revenue, WCHA teams rank 1-3-4-5-6-8-9-12 in average tickets per game, while only Michigan and MSU are in the top 12. Now take the NMU's LSSU's and Ferris States, who are facing budget cuts in state aid and show them where an extra $10,000 for plane tickets comes from. Do you take it out of recruiting? Do you downgrade to staying at Motel 6 on your road trips? If you're so confident that adding UAH is a reasonable fiscal move, why won't the WCHA consider it?

moose97
05-18-2011, 08:24 PM
Several people from the CCHA stated travel concerns as a factor in their no votes.

I don't recall any press release stating this. Maybe that's what all the teams were saying behind the scenes. And that's kind of my point - man up and say why the CCHA denied UAH. That cost savings of not traveling to UNO is more valuable than saving UAH.


And when you look at CCHA revenues vs WCHA revenues, there is a big difference. Each school generates more in tournament revenue by a long shot. And when you talk ticket revenue, WCHA teams rank 1-3-4-5-6-8-9-12 in average tickets per game, while only Michigan and MSU are in the top 12. Now take the NMU's LSSU's and Ferris States, who are facing budget cuts in state aid and show them where an extra $10,000 for plane tickets comes from. Do you take it out of recruiting? Do you downgrade to staying at Motel 6 on your road trips?

Let's not pretend that the CCHA schools are alone in these tough financial times. BSU faced a $5 million deficit (http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2011/01/20/bemidji-state-budget-cuts/) (and cut men's track (http://www.runnerspace.com/news.php?news_id=15944-Bemidji-State-University-to-cut-Track-as-part-of-budget-cuts)); MSUM had to cut $6-10 million (http://mankatofreepress.com/local/x1059040050/MSU-targets-possible-cuts) and cut 3 sports (http://m.examiner.com/exMankato/db_153164/contentdetail.htm;jsessionid=977A76560E700B14C5218 1A39DE1C6DE?contentguid=UgT7pj5T&detailindex=1&pn=0&ps=3); SCSU had to have a student vote to increase fees (http://monke.areavoices.com/2010/11/st-cloud-state-students-vote-to-save-football-program-cut-into-weekly-beer-budget/) to save football from the chopping block. And that's with WCHA revenue...


If you're so confident that adding UAH is a reasonable fiscal move, why won't the WCHA consider it?

Why should they? And note, I never said that the CCHA should now either. Looking back at the summer of '09, it was a somewhat lateral move (sure, losing UNO hurt), but travel budget-wise, it would not have been any added expense (especially with the $10,000 per team subsidy from UAH). We can argue ad nausium the merits of the WCHA "going after" UNO, but it made sense. CCHA fans that were upset by it are just showing sour grapes.

Like I have said before, at this point, UAH doesn't currently fit anywhere (unless someone else drops the sport). If the WCHA stands pat at 10 and the CCHA stays at 8, no - it makes no sense to add UAH. Even if we get some sort of "Super 6" I don't see a spot for them.

HOWEVER, in the summer of 2009, there was a completely legitimate spot in a conference with an odd number of teams. PSU was still a year away from even thinking about adding hockey (seeing as Terry Pegulia didn't sell his land until ~May of 2010). So, that being said, all I wanted was for the CCHA to have said publicly that they'd rather save money on travel budgets than save UAH. Really - it's pretty simple.

See? That way we could stop this charade about "UAH is too far away" and "what about the 48 hour rule?" The simple answer would be that the CCHA was more interested in saving itself than saving UAH. And if that's true, fine. At least own up to it.

davyd83
05-18-2011, 08:49 PM
Great post Moose. It's nice to actually be able to discuss the sport, either agree or disagree, with logical, rational posters who make well thought out posts!

uaafanblog
05-18-2011, 09:07 PM
OK ... so 10 minutes of thinking about it results in ...

RWHA (Real West Hockey Association)
UAA
UAF
Denver
CC
UND
UAH
This would work because of several factors. These schools all already fly well. There is an ability to schedule additional non-conference games at home for each team due to the exemptions from playing in Alaska (meaning as much as 22 games on the home schedule for UND, DU, CC and 14 on the road). A guaranteed good gross from the yearly RWHA conference tournament at the 11,000+ seat Ralph (many configurations possible there with UND getting all the "sweet" night games).

UAA and UAF subsidize all travel for all members. Cooperative scheduling for Alaska trips ... i.e ... Sunday/Monday games at one school then Thursday/Friday games at the other .. teams would travel on Friday and return home on Saturday. Both UAA and UAF currently stay in the lower 48 for consecutive series at least once per year and both sets of student/athletes perform well in the classroom (technology also makes this very workable).

WCHA
UMD
UNO
SCSU
Mankato
Bemidji
MTU
This works because it eliminates pretty much all flights for the Minnesota schools and they maintain all their instate rivalries. They keep the pretty MTU Cup and can host their conference tournament at any number of rinks in the Minnesota (Xcel or Target for example depending on demand) area with lots of seats which would generate a nice tournament revenue. In-State fan interest would be maintained.

CCHA
Miami
Notre Dame
Ferris St.
Northern Mich.
Lake State
BGSU
Western
This works because it already works now. Michigan and Michigan State were not some huge cash cow for these programs anyway. It's almost a maintains the status quo solution. One may argue that there is a revenue decrease from the Big10 schools departure but what can you do? Everyone has that issue. With 7 schools this conference has some small amount of breathing room should one go TU. And none of these whiners has to go to Alaska or Alabama.

Other good reasons ...
3 auto-bids that 20 schools compete for versus 2.
Maintains geographic integrity.
Saves UAH.
Maintains and enhances "ACTUAL" rivalries.
Keeps most of the schools that moan about travel to Alaska from "having" to go.

Reasons it wouldn't work ...
DU thinks they're something they aren't.
DU is skerred to play other "real" western teams.
DU thinks they can tell CC what to do.

moose97
05-18-2011, 09:23 PM
Great post Moose. It's nice to actually be able to discuss the sport, either agree or disagree, with logical, rational posters who make well thought out posts!

The biggest problem, IMHO, is that 99.9% of even college hockey media (let alone fans) don't know the sport all that well outside their own conference. It's not like football or basketball where a fan can watch all the relevant teams every week (if they buy the respective TV package). I mean, I watch as much college hockey as anyone I know (if it's on TV, I DVR it and watch usually between 6-10 games a week), but even still - I've never seen several teams on TV let alone live.

Now extrapolate that out to the "average" fan who only watches their own team and only when they are at home (not talking spoiled Gophers fans who see their team every week on TV). What does that fan know about a school they see once or twice a year, if that (let alone if they are OOC and they are grasping at straws that they Google)?

The best example I have is SCSU. I was involved in a discussion about them maybe dropping football, and the topic came up - why don't they just increase ticket prices for hockey $5? That'll raise a half-million right there (~100,000 reported attendance for the season X $5)! Well, if you've been to a SCSU game lately, you know that the reported attendance is pure fantasy (sell-out? maybe half-full), and not only that, but people I've talked to down there say that they no longer buy season tickets since they know they can walk-up and buy for Gopher games. Plus, they don't think that they're getting their money worth as it is... So, while you can look on the internet and come up with this theory about raising ticket prices and solve SCSU's budget problem, unless you've been there and talked to people, you wouldn't know that it can't possibly work.

My point? Folks get all fired up that they are an "expert" on everything (and this is the internet in general, not just college hockey) because they Googled it and read all about it on Wikipedia... Now, if you are and do know something? Great. But if not, shut up and listen to those that actually do (and no, Dave, that's not me telling you to shut up :p It's more directed towards those that **** us all off on here more often than not).

Oh, and I agree with your main point (sorry for my rambling tonight). More folks need to realize that you can have an intelligent discussion where the sides disagree. And that goes for real life as well as the internet.