Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

Fair point. I will concede that Eaves is an amazing coach.

I'm not sure I'd call him "amazing". Amazing coaches at bigtime schools don't have teams who finish near or under .500 and on the road in the first round of the playoffs and miss the NCAA's for half of their tenure. Eaves does have an amazing eye for talent seeing he's loading up the NHL with impact players, but those players have only produced 2 great seasons while in the Cardinal and White. I'd put tDon and Red ahead of Eaves as far as a college coach goes.

[markwojo]

Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

Not sure there can ever be a pure pecking order of coaches as each circumstance and situation is unique. Wisconsin is not Minnesota which is not Michigan. The fate and sucess of these coaches and teams are acutely tied to decisions of teenagers. Who commits, who renigs to late to find a compareable recruit, who don't adapt at the higher level, who decides they want to leave before you could reasonably have expects and on and on. I know all schools have their hiccups and unpleasant suprises be it decommits, early departures, last minute switches to junior, but Eaves has had some ****ty luck with these issues. Turris and Gagner were set to be a dynamic duo until Gagner's dad got an asistant gig and Sam got whatever sweetheart deal he got. Turris made the blunder of leaving after one year when he likely would have went from good college player to difference maker as a soph. Hell, last years squad without Craig Smith really developing so well so quick and Murray's unique citizenship situation would have been so much better then the one horse (line) trick show it was losing 2 top 6 forwards way to late in the game to replace. All that said, excuses are for losers and Eaves bares the burden of fixing the problems in the end. I'm not so sure he isn't one of the better college coaches and that this coming season is not a significant up year again with Kerdelis and Zullnick adding some scoring/talent depth to the one line trick show (that and some of the other youngin's developing as well). This is looking to be a really deep team in the circa '06 and '10 variety. Hopefully Eaves is evolving in his stewarship of the program to minimize the valley's we've been seeing, but I'm not sure anyone will ever be able to do that indefinately as there is just to much volatility in what kids you can get to come & stay (or how long they'll stay) for anyone to stay at a peak indefinately (although BC has been on a nice run of late).

[wjefwhite]

Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

I'm not sure I'd call him "amazing". Amazing coaches at bigtime schools don't have teams who finish near or under .500 and on the road in the first round of the playoffs and miss the NCAA's for half of their tenure. Eaves does have an amazing eye for talent seeing he's loading up the NHL with impact players, but those players have only produced 2 great seasons while in the Cardinal and White. I'd put tDon and Red ahead of Eaves as far as a college coach goes.

Totally disagree. Ask the NY Islanders how Lucia developers players... No one has said that about Eaves.

[RinkPig]

Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

Totally disagree. Ask the NY Islanders how Lucia developers players... No one has said that about Eaves.

Get back to us with this argument when Garth Snow has a .500 team.

[JDUBBS1280]

Totally disagree. Ask the NY Islanders how Lucia developers players... No one has said that about Eaves.

Yeah, let's take Garth Snow's word for it

Or, we can just go with 2>1

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

I have to agree with wojo: there's a lot of circumstantial stuff involved with recruiting that makes it hard to make an apples to apples comparison. Especially when it comes to kids who leave programs early- we've learned the hard way how unpredictable that side of the equation can be.

On the other side of the token: several other coaches of top-flight programs have not had the same depths as we have in past years, and most of them have considerably more conference hardware (something we've historically struggled with) to show for it.

[solovsfett]

Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

I think we can compare Eaves and Berenson head to head. they compete for many of the same recruits and Michigan doesn't have a lock on all Michigan-born talent like Lucia does on Minnesota kids.

for now I'm going w/NCAA rings and Eaves loses out on that score 2-1 and 2-1. with NCAA appearances he loses as well. we'll know all we need to know not this year but in 3 years I think when these current kids are all gone, will they re-load or re-build?

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

Just wanted to note that there is much more that goes into winning than recruiting rankings. Wisconsin had three first round draft picks, and a second round draft pick in their 2007 class. Did they win a ring? No. Minnesota had four first round draft picks in their 2006 class. Did they win a ring? No. Minnesota had four first round draft picks and a second round draft pick in their 2005 class. Did they win a ring? No.

Only two of those high end guys even played in a Frozen Four and that was Brendan Smith and Ryan McDonagh in 2010.

I sat at Select 15's in St. Cloud and watched with my own two eyes Seth Ambroz absolutely dominate the action against the best players in the entire country. He was a can't miss prospect and people pegged him as a top 5 player for his NHL draft year. Everyone in the crowd was drooling over this kid including every college coach in the building.

The point is hockey games are won on the ice, not on Heisenberg's recruiting site. Minnesota has some studs coming in? Yeah, no kidding. What year have they not had a good recruiting class? Michigan and Minnesota have two of the top 5 recruiting classes every single year. Same can be said for a lot of high end school. But it's the development of these kids over the next 3-5 years that makes the difference between winning games and losing games.

[mnstate0fhockey]

Just wanted to note that there is much more that goes into winning than recruiting rankings. Wisconsin had three first round draft picks, and a second round draft pick in their 2007 class. Did they win a ring? No. Minnesota had four first round draft picks in their 2006 class. Did they win a ring? No. Minnesota had four first round draft picks and a second round draft pick in their 2005 class. Did they win a ring? No.

Only two of those high end guys even played in a Frozen Four and that was Brendan Smith and Ryan McDonagh in 2010.

I sat at Select 15's in St. Cloud and watched with my own two eyes Seth Ambroz absolutely dominate the action against the best players in the entire country. He was a can't miss prospect and people pegged him as a top 5 player for his NHL draft year. Everyone in the crowd was drooling over this kid including every college coach in the building.

The point is hockey games are won on the ice, not on Heisenberg's recruiting site. Minnesota has some studs coming in? Yeah, no kidding. What year have they not had a good recruiting class? Michigan and Minnesota have two of the top 5 recruiting classes every single year. Same can be said for a lot of high end school. But it's the development of these kids over the next 3-5 years that makes the difference between winning games and losing games.

This.

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

All that said, Chuck, it would seem that Eaves' ability to develop talent has provided more results in the NHL than it has in Madison.

I have a hard time making sense of that disparity.

[solovsfett]

Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

All that said, Chuck, it would seem that Eaves' ability to develop talent has provided more results in the NHL than it has in Madison.

I have a hard time making sense of that disparity.

I agree w/this 1000% *and* I also understand what Chuck is saying...I guess bottom line is Jerry York has figured out how to get it done and the rest of the coaches really haven't. So for now, we wait to see what the next 2-3 years bring

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

I agree w/this 1000% *and* I also understand what Chuck is saying...I guess bottom line is Jerry York has figured out how to get it done and the rest of the coaches really haven't. So for now, we wait to see what the next 2-3 years bring

Eaves needs a constant train of top end guys coming in every year. Every year you need 1 stud D and 2 stud F coming in, which assuming every year you lose a std D and 2 stud F early, you always have 3 stud D and 6 stud F on the roster. That gives you scoring through the first 3 lines, 2 good PP units and more than likely 3 solid sets of D. Obviously way easier said than done, especially with unbalanced classes. Right now he doesn't have that constant train, it's too sporadic to have consistent success.

[Toe Blake]

Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

Just wanted to note that there is much more that goes into winning than recruiting rankings. Wisconsin had three first round draft picks, and a second round draft pick in their 2007 class. Did they win a ring? No. Minnesota had four first round draft picks in their 2006 class. Did they win a ring? No. Minnesota had four first round draft picks and a second round draft pick in their 2005 class. Did they win a ring? No.

Only two of those high end guys even played in a Frozen Four and that was Brendan Smith and Ryan McDonagh in 2010.

I sat at Select 15's in St. Cloud and watched with my own two eyes Seth Ambroz absolutely dominate the action against the best players in the entire country. He was a can't miss prospect and people pegged him as a top 5 player for his NHL draft year. Everyone in the crowd was drooling over this kid including every college coach in the building.

The point is hockey games are won on the ice, not on Heisenberg's recruiting site. Minnesota has some studs coming in? Yeah, no kidding. What year have they not had a good recruiting class? Michigan and Minnesota have two of the top 5 recruiting classes every single year. Same can be said for a lot of high end school. But it's the development of these kids over the next 3-5 years that makes the difference between winning games and losing games.

I would add that college coaches get too much credit or blame for that development or lack thereof. The great majority of "development" is genetic. There is some environmental impact, but every kid has his potential and there is nothing a coach can do about that. The key is recruiting as many high potentials that you can and then hoping they have the intangibles to reach that potential. Recruiting to the more difficult to identify intangibles is the key these days.

[bothman]

Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

I agree w/this 1000% *and* I also understand what Chuck is saying...I guess bottom line is Jerry York has figured out how to get it done and the rest of the coaches really haven't. So for now, we wait to see what the next 2-3 years bring

York has buttered his bread with small players that are highly skilled and have wheels, but are either not NHL ready or are drafted in the latter rounds because of concerns around size/durability at the next level. For every Chris Kreider, there are 3-4 players who are highly effective in the college game, but may not translate into impact NHL'ers, let alone ever play in the NHL.

Look no farther than Ben Eaves as a perfect example of the prototypical BC player.

[markwojo]

Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

All that said, Chuck, it would seem that Eaves' ability to develop talent has provided more results in the NHL than it has in Madison.

I have a hard time making sense of that disparity.

I have to disagree somewhat...the high end talent that has moved through Madison and ultimately into the NHL was generally all very productive in college as well. It's not as if Pavelski, Craig Smith, McDonagh, Geoffrion, McBain, Brendan Smith, and on and on were bums in college and suddenly morphed into good players when they signed their pro contract. The problem is that that talent flow has been uneven (some by premature departure as well as other circumstances) and that in general, a lot of that high end talent is coming in as legit 18 year old frosh competing in a league that generally is won by the teams with good upperclass nucleuses. The 06 title team won not so much because argueable the best pro players (Pavelski, Gilbert, & Elliott) but by virtue of them all being 21, 22, & 23 years old with a solid collection of upperclassmen supplementing their skills. Guys like MacMurchy, Joudrey, Dowell, Burish, Ross Carlson, Licari, ect that were all old enough to legally have a beer. Likewise, look at the 2010 runner up team roster and specifically the quantity of upperclassmen (and the high end NHL guys that stuck around to their Jr & even Sr year like Geoffrion).

The Badgers woes have been at times lacking upperclass kids that have been through the battles to supplement the high end kids that are generally only in college 2 or 3 years at most. 18 year old kids like LaBate, McCabe, & Mersch will be good in college as frosh and better as sophs, but the trick is can you hang on to a few of those kids for that 3rd or even 4th year (like Gilbert or Geoffrion) and have enough upperclass talent/leadership to be a legit contender.