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FreddyC
02-23-2011, 07:10 AM
I recently read the article about Paul Stewart having it out with reporters and read the comments about the officiating. Is the officiating bad? Are there any good referees or linesman in the league?

drshoen
02-23-2011, 07:15 AM
Is the sky blue? Does the sun rise in the East?

Yes, officiating is bad. Stewart needs to go; officiating has gotten noticeably worse during his tenure, and his reaction to honest complaint shows that he's not paying attention.

LTsatch
02-23-2011, 07:36 AM
FreddyC, I see this is your first post, welcome to USCHO. I think you might get to know a few RPI guys pretty quickly. IMO opinion the officiating I have seen at approximately 15 Yale games this year has been decent with a couple bad games and a couple good ones. But we all know that no one hardly ever talks about how good the officiating is, so this is a pretty loaded subject.

FlagDUDE08
02-23-2011, 08:09 AM
I recently read the article about Paul Stewart having it out with reporters and read the comments about the officiating. Is the officiating bad? Are there any good referees or linesman in the league?

OK, LTSatch, I'll be the first RPI dude to bite.

Yes, there are good referees and good linesmen. Most of the referees I believe are good in the ECAC have been hired within the last couple of years, or I've just never noticed them. A sign of a good referee is when you don't notice them on the ice. Most of the referees about which we complain have been around the league for quite a while.

We pay to watch the players put on a show, not to watch the refs put on a show. I think it was last week on Coach's Corner that Don Cherry had a 20 second clip of linesmen throwing centers out of the faceoff circles, and then complaining about how fans are paying to watch the refs put on a show. Obviously there's a happy medium to make sure the game doesn't get out of hand, but it's a tough thing to do for probably about $150 a game plus travel reimbursement.

ScoobyFanClub
02-23-2011, 08:36 AM
Obviously there's a happy medium to make sure the game doesn't get out of hand, but it's a tough thing to do for probably about $150 a game plus travel reimbursement.

That's a key point. We expect greatness out of these guys. They're not even getting paid what minor league refs get paid - although some do both.

FlagDUDE08
02-23-2011, 08:42 AM
That's a key point. We expect greatness out of these guys. They're not even getting paid what minor league refs get paid - although some do both.

I don't know what the rate is for referees. I'm guessing it's about $150 to $200 plus travel. I know for soccer/basketball/baseball referees where I went to high school it was $70 plus travel when I was there, probably up to about $80 a game plus travel by now.

I have seen Feola do AHL games as a linesman (actually at a Crunch game this year), I believe Frank Murphy (who is no longer with the ECAC) does AHL.

allnightwong
02-23-2011, 09:39 AM
Chip F'in McDonald needs to go!

unofan
02-23-2011, 10:11 AM
I don't know what the rate is for referees. I'm guessing it's about $150 to $200 plus travel. I know for soccer/basketball/baseball referees where I went to high school it was $70 plus travel when I was there, probably up to about $80 a game plus travel by now.

I have seen Feola do AHL games as a linesman (actually at a Crunch game this year), I believe Frank Murphy (who is no longer with the ECAC) does AHL.

College basketball refs make bank at the D1 level - there's an article on ESPN about one ref where it's his full time job and his wife acts as his travel agent/coordinator. He's on the road pretty much every day from November through March, reffing at least 6 days a week and often times 8-10 games/ week (D3 game in afternoon, D1 game at night on weekends). All told, he'll earn over $200,000 for the season.

I know the Missouri Valley upped its basketball referee pay a few years back to match the BCS conferences. A ref's rate is based in part on experience and part on the day of the week (Wed and Saturday games were considered premium dates since most games are played on those 2 days). But a ref with Final Four experience working a Saturday game in the Valley would get a $1200 check; a ref with average experience (say 5 years and a few conference tournament games) stood to collect $900 for the same game. Now that didn't include travel, but still not a bad check for a 2 hour game.

Hockey's going to be nowhere close to that, but I wouldn't be surprised if WCHA refs made $300-$400/game, with linesmen getting half that.

FreshFish
02-23-2011, 10:17 AM
As others have said, there are good referees and some referees that could use some improvement.

From what I've been able to discern, there is a difference between a 'static' analysis and a 'dynamic' analysis, and most of the complaints actually go toward the lack of improvement over time.

It is a truism that to improve one needs to learn from one's mistakes. However, if one never admits to mistakes, then one is unable to learn and improve.

By insisting that the referees never make mistakes, the league is merely saying that there will be no improvement. Much of the controversy could be defused by saying, 'oops, accidents happen, sorry, we'll try to do better next time.'

Accidents are random events that afflict teams in an unfortunate way. People would be unhappy that an accident cost them a game; they'd make peace and then move on. It is the refusal to acknowledge the mistake that upsets people far more than the mistake itself, imho.

Look at that major league umpire that cost a pitcher a perfect game. He acknowledged his mistake and apologized to the player right away. The player accepted the apology. He still did not have the perfect game; yet any controversy was defused right away.

There is no way we will see video replay in college hockey; too expensive and too unreliable (except maybe in NCAAs?? who knows?). However, if there is clear video evidence that the refs made a mistake, what is the problem in saying so?

By refusing to acknowledge the mistake, one is left to wonder, 'was it really an accident? or is there a vendetta?' Admitting the mistake takes away that whole element.

The league is making a mistake by not admitting that refs are human and mistakes are part of the human condition.

jericho
02-23-2011, 10:34 AM
There is no way we will see video replay in college hockey; too expensive and too unreliable (except maybe in NCAAs?? who knows?). However, if there is clear video evidence that the refs made a mistake, what is the problem in saying so?




You do know that every arena in college hockey will be wired with video technology replay by next season, right?

FreddyC
02-23-2011, 11:22 AM
I was interested because I just moved east and I am a hockey official. I am working my way up and was curious to know who the good officials are. I have attended a few Brown games and I was at one Cornell game early in the season. The article caught my eye and since Paul Stewart was an NHL referee I thought I'd join and ask.

FlagDUDE08
02-23-2011, 12:03 PM
I was interested because I just moved east and I am a hockey official. I am working my way up and was curious to know who the good officials are. I have attended a few Brown games and I was at one Cornell game early in the season. The article caught my eye and since Paul Stewart was an NHL referee I thought I'd join and ask.

I would say, at least for the ECAC, that Zelasko and Wahl have been pretty fair, Durfee and Millea as well (Millea I believe also does Hockey East), you could probably say the same for Litterio. Most of the linesmen do a pretty decent job; there really isn't anyone that pops out to mind. Stay away from anyone named Murphy. ;)

Are you looking to potentially ref for the ECAC? I'm sure Paul Stewart would be willing to give you some information on when tryouts are, what's involved in the test, etc. if you were to e-mail him.

burgie12
02-23-2011, 05:39 PM
Most of the linesmen do a pretty decent job; there really isn't anyone that pops out to mind.
Gates is one that pops out in my mind. He seems to get in the way of more than his fair share of plays, throws out an absurdly high rate of centers on faceoffs, and misses way too many offsides / icings from the few games that I've seen him / paid attention. But, really, he's the only linesman who I could probably see in the game notes or box score and say "I hate when we have him."

AspyDad
02-23-2011, 06:04 PM
Feola, Baker and Hicks are awful. I think they have a vendetta against Appert. We know there boss (Stewart) does.

Larch
02-23-2011, 06:15 PM
There is no way we will see video replay in college hockey; too expensive and too unreliable (except maybe in NCAAs?? who knows?). However, if there is clear video evidence that the refs made a mistake, what is the problem in saying so?


You do know that every arena in college hockey will be wired with video technology replay by next season, right?

Not to mention that the WCHA has had for at least four years now.

LynahFan
02-23-2011, 06:20 PM
By insisting that the referees never make mistakes, the league is merely saying that there will be no improvement. Much of the controversy could be defused by saying, 'oops, accidents happen, sorry, we'll try to do better next time.'
Do you know for a fact that the league never tells the refs that they made a mistake? There could be a difference between what they say publicly and what they say internally - and I wouldn't blame them a bit if there were.

slewwwwwfoot!
02-23-2011, 06:44 PM
I would say, at least for the ECAC, that Zelasko and Wahl have been pretty fair, Durfee and Millea as well (Millea I believe also does Hockey East), you could probably say the same for Litterio. Most of the linesmen do a pretty decent job; there really isn't anyone that pops out to mind. Stay away from anyone named Murphy. ;)

Anyone have and information about how league refs are coordinated, and how often refs, well, ref, in multiple leagues? I was surprised to see Zelasko and Durfee here - maybe Murphy too, though the name is so generic, who knows - because we see them quite frequently in the AHA as well. Assuming it is the same Jeff Zelasko and Jay Durfee.

Or are these the guys that are HE or ECAC rejects (http://twitter.com/chrislerch/status/34070720728276992)?

Larriecat
02-23-2011, 06:46 PM
Why do the ECAC officials have their names on their stripes? Who cares who they are? The best are not seen or heard. It is way too much about the officials' egos in the games. They want to be a factor. Also, tell me, what is with the four stripes, at the beginning of a game, getting together at center ice, high fiving and puching each other like they were etting ready to do battle. There are some real bad ones and some newer ones who are really awful as well. It is all about attitude. How about the officials that think they have to yell at the kids? In my experience, the guys that are jerks on the ice, are jerks in real life. Scott Whittemore gets my vote as one of the younger, awful officals in the game. The next time you see Alex Dell, watch how he looks at himself in the glass every chance he gets. He also enjoys looking at the young co eds in the first few rows....... he should spend more time watching the game.

DarthBruno
02-23-2011, 07:35 PM
How about the officials that think they have to yell at the kids?

This drives me nuts. Most ECAC players are in their 20s. Do they really need to be babysat and coached by the officials?

Too many showboats wearing the stripes these days.

My last pet peeve: Can someone teach the refs and linesmen how to stay out of the way? I have seen way too many offensive rushes and other critical plays along the boards interrupted and spoiled by officials who don't know how to (or won't) dodge the flow of play.

FlagDUDE08
02-23-2011, 07:55 PM
The next time you see Alex Dell, watch how he looks at himself in the glass every chance he gets.

Name me a lawyer that DOESN'T do this.

As for the names on the uniforms, they tried without that for a few years, from 2005-07 I believe.