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HarleyMC
02-19-2011, 12:43 AM
And Harley pretty sure UW beat the Gophers earlier this year.

That was Gopher identity crisis part 1. We're in part 2 now.;)

The Rube
02-19-2011, 12:44 AM
yeah, well, I'm also accustomed to Wisconsin having more NCAA titles than "the state of hockey"

Ahem, the state of hockey refers to the sport as a whole. While you currently have more college titles, as a state our hockey history, and current state of hockey (ooo pun) dwarfs yours.

Next?

Gurtholfin
02-19-2011, 12:46 AM
Ahem, the state of hockey refers to the sport as a whole. While you currently have more college titles, as a state our hockey history, and current state of hockey (ooo pun) dwarfs yours.

Next?

Oh goody! Please explain!

What else have you won?

dxmnkd316
02-19-2011, 12:48 AM
Ahem, the state of hockey refers to the sport as a whole. While you currently have more college titles, as a state our hockey history, and current state of hockey (ooo pun) dwarfs yours.

Next?

Yeah, we were off saving the world at Lake Placid among other places.

HarleyMC
02-19-2011, 12:48 AM
Oh goody! Please explain!

Hard to explain Goody tonight...epic fail.

dxmnkd316
02-19-2011, 12:49 AM
hard to explain goody tonight...epic fail.

BAZINGA!!!!e

solovsfett
02-19-2011, 12:50 AM
Ahem, the state of hockey refers to the sport as a whole. While you currently have more college titles, as a state our hockey history, and current state of hockey (ooo pun) dwarfs yours.

Next?

I agree with you on that. As the numbers posted earlier attest in regard to numbers of D-1 players per state, etc., even today as a stand alone year, Wisconsin as a state is behind Minnesota by such a large margin it could take another 15-20 years to catch up. and that's just catching up to current output and quality, matching history would take what...60 years? maybe never?

but for the Badgers in particular...that's why UW recruits kids from CANADA, New York, California, Michigan, Illinois to help fill the gap so we can say 6>5;)

dxmnkd316
02-19-2011, 12:53 AM
15-20? Loller.

Happy
02-19-2011, 12:56 AM
I agree with you on that. As the numbers posted earlier attest in regard to numbers of D-1 players per state, etc., even today as a stand alone year, Wisconsin as a state is behind Minnesota by such a large margin it could take another 15-20 years to catch up. and that's just catching up to current output and quality, matching history would take what...60 years? maybe never?

but for the Badgers in particular...that's why UW recruits kids from CANADA, New York, California, Michigan, Illinois to help fill the gap so we can say 6>5;)

if the Badgers would have made any attempt at all to recruit local kids, like Minnesota did, you might have a little more talent pool to chose from. but, since you have always rather had someone from Canada over anyone local, why would a kid start to play hockey in Wisconsin to begin with. It's all a cycle where Minnesota probably gave up a championship or two to support local kids and the Olympics, and Wisconsin supported Canadians, and got a championship or two from it.

The Rube
02-19-2011, 12:59 AM
5 D1 teams. HS tourney routinely outdraws some eastern college tournaments, the number of MN-born players in the pros/college/etc, quality of rinks, ratings for hockey games, and of course media coverage overall, etc etc etc.

Gurtholfin
02-19-2011, 01:01 AM
5 D1 teams. HS tourney routinely outdraws some eastern college tournaments, the number of MN-born players in the pros/college/etc, quality of rinks, ratings for hockey games, and of course media coverage overall, etc etc etc.

Yeah, well the Vikings still suck. :p

Gurtholfin
02-19-2011, 01:09 AM
if the Badgers would have made any attempt at all to recruit local kids, like Minnesota did, you might have a little more talent pool to chose from. but, since you have always rather had someone from Canada over anyone local, why would a kid start to play hockey in Wisconsin to begin with. It's all a cycle where Minnesota probably gave up a championship or two to support local kids and the Olympics, and Wisconsin supported Canadians, and got a championship or two from it.

C'mon. This just isn't a hockey state and recruiting Wisconsin kids wouldn't have changed that in the least.

You gotta have towns with rinks and many large towns still don't and many just got them in the past few years.

I give your community based hockey lots of credit. I wish it was like that here. But it's not although it's getting better.

The question that you guys can't seem to answer though is why so many of your players have to go elsewhere to win titles? If it's so crucial to have Minnesota born players on a championship team, why is it that the teams that are made up of mostly Minnesota players don't do better?

solovsfett
02-19-2011, 01:09 AM
if the Badgers would have made any attempt at all to recruit local kids, like Minnesota did, you might have a little more talent pool to chose from. but, since you have always rather had someone from Canada over anyone local, why would a kid start to play hockey in Wisconsin to begin with. It's all a cycle where Minnesota probably gave up a championship or two to support local kids and the Olympics, and Wisconsin supported Canadians, and got a championship or two from it.

the chicken and egg argument essentially. IF Wisconsin would recruit only Wisconsin-born kids there'd be more interest in playing hockey over football, soccer, baseball, basketball. I just don't believe that's true.

Wisconsin has always had home grown players, it's just that those players comprise 1/4 or 1/5 of the roster because there isn't enough top-end talent here.

"Badger" Bob Johnson did more to promote hockey in wisconsin than anyone ever has. what did it do for High School hockey in this state? nothing. And he was a minnesotan, he would have known the culture and how to grow it...

Wisconsin's 6 NCAA Titles mean nothing to people in Southeastern Wiscosnsin where the majority of the population is, that isn't even on the radar. not even close. for whatever reason people here don't care at all about hockey. and THAT is the main reason why Wisconsin doesn't produce more great hockey players. if the population centers around milwaukee and including the city got behind hockey like they do in the twin cities we'd have something...until or unless we achieve that point then we've got 1/4 or 1/5 of the output.

Even in 05-06 (and prior to that 89-90) the Milwaukee Journal barely covered the team until they felt obliged too because of the title games. 2 weeks before the frozen four in milwaukee in 06 no bars on water street even knew there was a frozen four coming and that Wisconsin could be in it.

anyway (and on a tangent) I'd still like to make it to up to mpls one year to see the HS final 8 or whatever it is, we all know that's the creme de la creme of hockey in america as an overall talent pool.

Bakunin
02-19-2011, 01:17 AM
The BTN raised an interesting point tonight: when MN wins, they average over 4 goals per game, but when they lose, they average less than two. That's quite a spread and indicates just how inconsistent the Gophers have been this season.

They certainly seem to be stringing together some better efforts in the second half, at least.

Gurtholfin
02-19-2011, 01:24 AM
Wisconsin's 6 NCAA Titles mean nothing to people in Southeastern Wiscosnsin where the majority of the population is, that isn't even on the radar.

This fact can be seen in the relatively few youth hockey programs that exist over there. Dane County alone has more clubs with more players than Milwaukee, Waukesha and Ozaukee Counties combined.

That's more programs with about 1/5 of the population.

The Rube
02-19-2011, 01:24 AM
Yeah, well the Vikings still suck. :p

I knew football would be brought up. Thank goodness I'm not a Vikings fan. :p

On topic: if MN keeps playing the way they are playing, I like our chances for a short burst of winning (*cough* F5 *cough*) and sneak into the NCAA tourney. Even if we simply win out the regular season, I don't think it's enough. I don't even know if placing 2nd in the F5 would be enough. I think we have to win the whole...f*in'...thing. (c) Lou Brown

Slap Shot
02-19-2011, 01:27 AM
The question that you guys can't seem to answer though is why so many of your players have to go elsewhere to win titles? If it's so crucial to have Minnesota born players on a championship team, why is it that the teams that are made up of mostly Minnesota players don't do better?

I typically shy away from these arguments because imho titles matter even though I love the Pride On Ice mentality. Yet most programs aren't made up of "mostly Minnesota players" so imho the question is a bit disengenuous. Also it would be true to say a fair number of MN kids contribute quite handsomely to non-MN Div I teams in any give year and obviously a good share make their way to the NHL year after year.

I won't slight UW for looking beyond their borders because the number of prospects in state just aren't there. However your colors, your team and your fans suck ballz.

Gurtholfin
02-19-2011, 01:32 AM
I typically shy away from these arguments because imho titles matter even though I love the Pride On Ice mentality. That said most programs aren't made up of "mostly Minnesota players" so imho the question is a bit disengenuous. Also it would be true to say a fair number of MN kids contribute quite handsomely to non-MN Div I teams in any give year and obviously a good share make their way to the NHL year after year.

I won't slight UW for looking beyond their borders because the number of prospects in state just aren't there. However your colors, your team and your fans suck ballz.

I realize that the question is unfair, but it's the logical response to those who always bring up the number of Minnesotans out there and how the rest of us couldn't live without them.

And, that said your colors, your team and your fans suck ballz. :p

The Rube
02-19-2011, 01:36 AM
I typically shy away from these arguments because imho titles matter even though I love the Pride On Ice mentality. Yet most programs aren't made up of "mostly Minnesota players" so imho the question is a bit disengenuous. Also it would be true to say a fair number of MN kids contribute quite handsomely to non-MN Div I teams in any give year and obviously a good share make their way to the NHL year after year.

I won't slight UW for looking beyond their borders because the number of prospects in state just aren't there. However your colors, your team and your fans suck ballz.

This.

And sometimes, MNs aren't good enough to play for the Gophers (well, we Gopher fans tell ourselves that) and they contribute on other teams. Consider this: if MN was bad at hockey, why would other teams recruit them? ;)

Generally, my view is:

1. You're a good player. You can be 2nd, 3rd line on the Gophers. But you can be on the 1st or 2nd line on another outstate team. More playing time, which means more exposure, and better scouting reports.

2. Change of scenery. Someone might think that a taste of the east coast will broaden their horizons (read: my state knows about me, but NY/Mass/etc knows nothing about me. Time to educate them on my skills). So they go there. Whatever the reason, they move elsewhere.

3. Systems. MN used to be predominantly an offense-minded system. Notsomuch now, although they really try at times. Say you're a defensive defenseman. You would want to look at programs that play like that: WI (traditionally), Cornell, etc. It's a better fit.

Bakunin
02-19-2011, 02:08 AM
Even if we simply win out the regular season, I don't think it's enough.
It isn't. Tech and BSU aren't going to help much in the pairwise, even if MN goes 4-0 against them.

I don't even know if placing 2nd in the F5 would be enough. I think we have to win the whole...f*in'...thing. (c) Lou Brown
I think it might be enough - but it depends on what happens with the other bubble teams and whether or not any non-top 15's pull off conference upsets and push the line to 14th or 13th. If MN makes it to the F5 title game, they'd have 6 or 7 games remaining against TUCs (depends on if first round goes to 3 games). Playoff opponent (round one) is almost certainly going to be CC, SCSU, or UW. Second round will probably be against DU/UND/UNO/UMD, and the championship is likely against one of them as well. So to get to the title game, MN presumably would have to go something along the lines of 5-1 in those games (9-1 overall counting the Tech and BSU games). The Gophers need to swing four comparisons to get to 13 total (and 15th in the pairwise).
Here are the current lost comparisons - I mention the closest measure by which MN can flip it and the TUC situation in parentheses if need be:

Princeton - by 3 ten thousandths of point (RPI)

CC - by 0.0045 in RPI (TUC's: 11-12-1 for them vs 7-11-4 for MN)

BU - by 0.0111 in RPI (TUC portion already won by MN)

WMU - 0.0091 in RPI and 4-5-4 v 9-11-4 in TUC (overall comparison lost 3-0 so these two would both need to flip, which they almost certainly would in this scenario)

UW - by 0.0129 in RPI (note: comparison will be tied with a MN win tonight, but UW will certainly cling to it via the RPI tie-breaker; however, MN would overtake them via the COP component with the aforementioned scenario of placing 2nd in the F5 and would also overtake them via RPI - and of course would overtake them with a first round playoff victory should the two meet there)

Dartmouth - by 0.0171 in RPI and 5-5-2 v 9-11-4 in TUC

RPI - by 0.0126 in RPI (ha!); could also flip it via TUC (7-5-2 v 9-11-4) *if* RPI's TUC record worsens.

UNH - 8-6-1 TUC v 9-11-4; again, if MN gets some help here and places 2nd, they can flip it.

The other comparisons I see are basically out of reach.

Under the given 2nd place scenario, I see Princeton, CC, WMU, and UW flipping to MN for sure (unless CC manages to also advance to the title game and beats MN there). UNH, RPI, and Dartmouth are all fair game as well, although I can't imagine *all* of them going to MN unless everything lined up right. Even if some combination of those did go to MN, at best, the Gophers would be in some sort of logjam at 12th. Another thing to watch out for is the TUC cliff. There are *eight* teams within 0.015 of it: Cornell, both Alaska schools, RIT, Robert Morris, SCSU, Mankato, and Ferris State. MN obviously wants Mankato to drop out.