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darker98
01-19-2011, 02:57 PM
There is nothing to do in Memphis even if you go there, which is a bad idea.


I watch the first 48 on A&E. You can obviously get murdered there.

gfmorris
01-21-2011, 10:18 PM
The local folks who put on the MC-UAH series last weekend seem serious about making a bid. Is it traditional college hockey country? No. Are more hockey players coming out of the mid-South and West Coast these days? Sure. Does it make sense to have two Frozen Fours in four years in non-traditional hockey markets? I don't think so.

I mean, I wouldn't mind having the FF just 1h35m from my front door [I drive to downtown for concerts fairly regularly], but I don't know where it makes a ton of sense for 2015.

GFM

pgb-ohio
01-22-2011, 12:07 AM
Very sensible comment. Nashville is appealing as far as I'm concerned. But let's see how Tampa goes before taking the plunge.

A few years back, I was quite skeptical about St. Louis. My feeling was that it was too far removed from any current D-1 program. I was very pleased to be proven wrong by a fine local turnout, apparently from the Blues' fanbase. That said, it was still a pretty easy ticket on the secondary market.

So the question is, will Lightning & Preds fans support the FF the way the Blues fans did? Quite possibly so. But let's see how the Lightning fans do before we sign up for another experiment.

gfmorris
01-22-2011, 09:58 AM
Very sensible comment. Nashville is appealing as far as I'm concerned. But let's see how Tampa goes before taking the plunge.

A few years back, I was quite skeptical about St. Louis. My feeling was that it was too far removed from any current D-1 program. I was very pleased to be proven wrong by a fine local turnout, apparently from the Blues' fanbase. That said, it was still a pretty easy ticket on the secondary market.

So the question is, will Lightning & Preds fans support the FF the way the Blues fans did? Quite possibly so. But let's see how the Lightning fans do before we sign up for another experiment.

I think you'd see better response out of TBL than NSH fans, and as others have noted, the bulk of the fanbase at the FF is the group of folks who go every year. Those VISA commercials talking about the band of die-hards who've been to every Super Bowl makes me chuckle, knowing the folks who go to the FF every year.

GFM

moose97
01-22-2011, 10:15 AM
I think you'd see better response out of TBL than NSH fans, and as others have noted, the bulk of the fanbase at the FF is the group of folks who go every year. Those VISA commercials talking about the band of die-hards who've been to every Super Bowl makes me chuckle, knowing the folks who go to the FF every year.

GFM

My sister (Vanderbilt alum still living in Nashville who attends a few Pred's games each year) asked how the FF would survive there when all they could draw for the UAH games was 2000 and that included some free ticket offers for Preds fans. I then explained the roving "season ticket" group, and she, I think, understood.

gfmorris
01-22-2011, 10:18 AM
My sister (Vanderbilt alum still living in Nashville who attends a few Pred's games each year) asked how the FF would survive there when all they could draw for the UAH games was 2000 and that included some free ticket offers for Preds fans. I then explained the roving "season ticket" group, and she, I think, understood.

I am wondering if their goal with the UAH series was to get to ~2000 fans, knowing that's what they'd need for walkup to get to a great crowd for the FF.

GFM

CHFAN222
01-22-2011, 11:14 AM
What UAH and the Preds might want to consider doing is having one series there a year. It would give UAH a niche and a unique draw to convince other teams to travel down and play them. Some teams may not want to fly into Huntsville but they could be willing to travel down to Nashville to play in an NHL arena.

gfmorris
01-22-2011, 11:30 AM
What UAH and the Preds might want to consider doing is having one series there a year.

It is my understanding that all parties want to do this again.

GFM

pgb-ohio
01-22-2011, 12:10 PM
I think you'd see better response out of TBL than NSH fans...I'd be intrigued to hear more about the TBL vs. NSH fanbase comparison.


...and as others have CLAIMED, the bulk of the fanbase at the FF is the group of folks who go every year.Fixed your post. Is the claim correct? It depends on how you define bulk. If by bulk you mean a large, noticeable group that helps define the event, I'm with you. If you mean a clear numerical majority, not so fast.

I realize that the latter interpretation represents the conventional wisdom. Unfortunately the truth is much more complicated. Annual attendees might fill up half the available seats. At the very most. I suspect the real number is substantially less. This conclusion is based on the following:

In a normal year, the public lottery distributes only half of the total number of tickets. Many of the lottery seats go to first time attendees, or those with just 1 or 2 priority points. In most cases, these fans cannot fairly be described as annual attendees.

Granted, some of the regulars get tickets through the host school allotment when the FF comes to their town. Others are fortunate enough to have their favorite team reach the FF, and get ducats through participating team allotments. Still others go every year, but always use the secondary ticket market.

But also note that a good number of the true regulars take a year off from time to time. Further, there's no doubt in my mind that the "absentee rate" is higher at non-traditional sites.

Bottom line? There simply aren't enough of us to fill up an NHL rink in the absence of local support.

I understand that we've reached the point where any FF in an NHL rink will sellout on paper. But if large numbers of "corporate friend" and other non-lottery seats sit empty, our event will be diminished. Even if one doesn't care about tournament atmosphere, that means fewer $$ spent on concessions, parking, souveniors, etc.

And make no mistake. A large number of FF tickets aren't used by the original recipients. This is almost inevitable when fans are forced to buy tickets a year in advance, and thousands more seats are passed out to corporate friends. Unless there are a sufficient number of buyers on the secondary market, the result is purchased but empty seats.

I, for one, care greatly about tournament atmosphere. That is why I'd like to see what the no-show rate is in Tampa before making a commitment to Nashville.

gfmorris
01-22-2011, 07:12 PM
I'd be intrigued to hear more about the TBL vs. NSH fanbase comparison.

Fixed your post. Is the claim correct? It depends on how you define bulk. If by bulk you mean a large, noticeable group that helps define the event, I'm with you. If you mean a clear numerical majority, not so fast.

I realize that the latter interpretation represents the conventional wisdom. Unfortunately the truth is much more complicated. Annual attendees might fill up half the available seats. At the very most. I suspect the real number is substantially less. This conclusion is based on the following:

In a normal year, the public lottery distributes only half of the total number of tickets. Many of the lottery seats go to first time attendees, or those with just 1 or 2 priority points. In most cases, these fans cannot fairly be described as annual attendees.

Granted, some of the regulars get tickets through the host school allotment when the FF comes to their town. Others are fortunate enough to have their favorite team reach the FF, and get ducats through participating team allotments. Still others go every year, but always use the secondary ticket market.

But also note that a good number of the true regulars take a year off from time to time. Further, there's no doubt in my mind that the "absentee rate" is higher at non-traditional sites.

Bottom line? There simply aren't enough of us to fill up an NHL rink in the absence of local support.

I understand that we've reached the point where any FF in an NHL rink will sellout on paper. But if large numbers of "corporate friend" and other non-lottery seats sit empty, our event will be diminished. Even if one doesn't care about tournament atmosphere, that means fewer $$ spent on concessions, parking, souveniors, etc.

And make no mistake. A large number of FF tickets aren't used by the original recipients. This is almost inevitable when fans are forced to buy tickets a year in advance, and thousands more seats are passed out to corporate friends. Unless there are a sufficient number of buyers on the secondary market, the result is purchased but empty seats.

I, for one, care greatly about tournament atmosphere. That is why I'd like to see what the no-show rate is in Tampa before making a commitment to Nashville.

I'm going on anecdotal evidence on both points, but my concern about NSH is more well-founded, as they struggled to sell out games late in the season when they were playoff contenders. When you can't do that, I wonder how much traction hockey has in your town.

GFM

pgb-ohio
01-23-2011, 03:56 AM
I'm going on anecdotal evidence on both points, but my concern about NSH is more well-founded, as they struggled to sell out games late in the season when they were playoff contenders. When you can't do that, I wonder how much traction hockey has in your town.

GFMA very legitimate concern. The NHL regular season is admittedly long. If a somewhat smallish fan base tends to be worn out by March, it does call into question their ability to support a Frozen Four in April.

CLS
01-23-2011, 08:40 AM
And in addition to the factors that pgb mentioned, of course there’s the factor of which teams are playing, which is the wild card that prevents a laboratory-type experiment that truly tests the effect of the location. The worst atmosphere of the FF’s that I’ve attended was Columbus, which is a college hockey town, and the poor attendance had little to do with the quality of Columbus as a FF host and a lot to do with the teams that were there.

As far as the prospective future FF hosts, the NCAA seems pretty fixed on NHL sized arenas. And of the 25 non-Canadian NHL cities, about half are in the southeast, southwest, or west. Of the midwest and northeast cities, I doubt that anyone would be very excited about Long Island or New Jersey. Some people mention New York, but I can’t see MSG putting together a bid, and of the other “traditional cities, lots of folks on this board don’t think Joe Louis is a very good site (and Detroit just, ahem, hosted a FF), and Boston seems incapable of putting together a credible bid.

So we’re probably going to have these sorts of discussions (____ [(insert name of sun belt city] as a FF host?) more than half of the time.

Onion Man
01-23-2011, 08:51 AM
. The worst atmosphere of the FF’s that I’ve attended was Columbus, which is a college hockey town, and the poor attendance had little to do with the quality of Columbus as a FF host and a lot to do with the teams that were there.

???

The atmosphere, admittedly horrible, had to do with the city and the venue, NOT the teams. You had four teams in the same conference that year and it was a great rivalry FF. How do you explain the Washington DC FF? There, you truly had four zzzzzzz teams. Besides BU (who was good that year), you had Bemidji State, Vermont and Miami. That's hardly a gauntlet of hockey powerhouses and the whole weekend was electric

What made 2009 was the city, the venue, etc. Columbus is a miserable town in the middle of nowhere. There was nothing else to do there at all. Washington, Denver, Boston, even STL had good environments because there was much more to offer than just the FF games. No thanks to Nashville, it will be a disaster.

Puck Swami
01-23-2011, 12:29 PM
The worst atmosphere of the FF’s that I’ve attended was Columbus, which is a college hockey town, and the poor attendance had little to do with the quality of Columbus as a FF host and a lot to do with the teams that were there.


I'm not sure what you mean by that. The four WCHA schools that were there are all marquee programs who all sold out the school alotment of tickets. The empty seats (and the rinks were 85-90% full) were likely sponsor tickets who didn't bother to travel to Columbus in the first place. The worst part of that Frozen Four was having to play on campus, where there was little to do around the arena.

bigmrg74
01-23-2011, 12:37 PM
???

The atmosphere, admittedly horrible, had to do with the city and the venue, NOT the teams. You had four teams in the same conference that year and it was a great rivalry FF. How do you explain the Washington DC FF? There, you truly had four zzzzzzz teams. Besides BU (who was good that year), you had Bemidji State, Vermont and Miami. That's hardly a gauntlet of hockey powerhouses and the whole weekend was electric

What made 2009 was the city, the venue, etc. Columbus is a miserable town in the middle of nowhere. There was nothing else to do there at all. Washington, Denver, Boston, even STL had good environments because there was much more to offer than just the FF games. No thanks to Nashville, it will be a disaster.

There's plenty of stuff to do in Nashville if you know where to look, and not all of it has to do with country music either.

CHFAN222
01-23-2011, 01:02 PM
It is my understanding that all parties want to do this again.

GFM

That's good. The best way I can see Nashville getting a frozen four is if they keep building up the UAH game there. Maybe have them host a holiday tournament or something there. It would also help if another team in the south started up a program. If you could get another southern team to hop on board that might help in getting a bid to Nashville.

gfmorris
01-23-2011, 03:49 PM
That's good. The best way I can see Nashville getting a frozen four is if they keep building up the UAH game there. Maybe have them host a holiday tournament or something there. It would also help if another team in the south started up a program. If you could get another southern team to hop on board that might help in getting a bid to Nashville.

I agree with the sentiment all around. You can't host one series with us there and say you're ready for a Frozen Four. Tampa had a four-team tournament a few years ago with UAH after their FF bid was accepted. We had hopes that would be a yearly thing with UAH involved, but that didn't happen. IMO Nashville stands a better shot if they work with UAH to host a yearly, four-team, holiday tournament. Having a doubleheader with the Predators was nice, but if you put on four games in a weekend, you really showcase your facility and get the word out about you. As it is, you've got the Merrimack folks saying nice things and our guys loving the experience.

GFM

CLS
01-24-2011, 09:12 AM
???

The atmosphere, admittedly horrible, had to do with the city and the venue, NOT the teams. You had four teams in the same conference that year and it was a great rivalry FF. How do you explain the Washington DC FF? There, you truly had four zzzzzzz teams. Besides BU (who was good that year), you had Bemidji State, Vermont and Miami. That's hardly a gauntlet of hockey powerhouses and the whole weekend was electric

What made 2009 was the city, the venue, etc. Columbus is a miserable town in the middle of nowhere. There was nothing else to do there at all. Washington, Denver, Boston, even STL had good environments because there was much more to offer than just the FF games. No thanks to Nashville, it will be a disaster. I meant that atmosphere inside the arena, which admittedly is a matter of opinion. I actually didn't have any problem with Columbus as a city, but to me, the arena was lacking because of attendance. It was very depressing to me to see scalpers virtually giving away primo tickets for the finals.

I explain the success of DC because the arena was relatively full, and the finals game had a very riveting finish.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. The four WCHA schools that were there are all marquee programs who all sold out the school alotment of tickets. The empty seats (and the rinks were 85-90% full) were likely sponsor tickets who didn't bother to travel to Columbus in the first place. The worst part of that Frozen Four was having to play on campus, where there was little to do around the arena.My statement was poorly worded, or at least incompletely explained. The final four were marquee programs with followings that are very enthusiastic, but not large enough, and too far away from Columbus, to absorb enough of the unused tickets. No knock on the schools, programs, or fan bases at all. To me, the atmophere in the arena was pretty dead (I didn't sit near any of the team sections). And of course there were other factors which there's no control over, such as the finals not being a particularly close game.

I'd go to Nashville, as long as the venue's not the football stadium.;)

Zudnic
01-24-2011, 09:40 AM
Anyone who watches the Simpsons knows Knoxville is famous for its super tall, wig-filled Sun Sphere.

HoosierBBall_GopherHockey
01-24-2011, 02:44 PM
There's plenty of stuff to do in Nashville if you know where to look, and not all of it has to do with country music either.

This.