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FreddyFoyle
12-21-2010, 02:41 PM
I've been hunting all over to find the answer to what should be a simple question, but can't find an online source, even on NCAA.org, so hopefully the question won't be seen to be off topic here.

What is the maximum number of games a Div I team can schedule and play in a season? Is it 34? Where is it written? I realize that years ago that Hockey East split off from the ECAC over the number of out of conference games, so is there different games maximums for each conferences, other than what the Ivy's impose on themselves? And what is the Ivy max?

And yes, I realize games against CIS teams in Canada, US NDTP and international U20 teams don't count against the max. Am I missing anything else?

FlagDUDE08
12-21-2010, 02:46 PM
I've been hunting all over to find the answer to what should be a simple question, but can't find an online source, even on NCAA.org, so hopefully the question won't be seen to be off topic here.

What is the maximum number of games a Div I team can schedule and play in a season? Is it 34? Where is it written? I realize that years ago that Hockey East split off from the ECAC over the number of out of conference games, so is there different games maximums for each conferences, other than what the Ivy's impose on themselves? And what is the Ivy max?

And yes, I realize games against CIS teams in Canada, US NDTP and international U20 teams don't count against the max. Am I missing anything else?

The general maximum is 34, I do not know where this is written.

The ivy league max is 29, and they are required to start about a month later than the rest of the country. Therefore the ECAC non-ivies have 12 OOC games, as opposed to the 6-8 the rest of the country has, because there are only 22 in-conference games (for the ECAC at least; the other leagues have 27 or 28 in conference games).

There's also the exemption for playing an Alaska team in Alaska, as well as the icebreaker.

Kepler
12-21-2010, 02:48 PM
There's also the exemption for playing an Alaska team in Alaska, as well as the icebreaker.

Princeton (?) toured Europe a few years ago and IIRC those games were exempt too.

FlagDUDE08
12-21-2010, 02:52 PM
Princeton (?) toured Europe a few years ago and IIRC those games were exempt too.

Were they playing NCAA or European teams? If they were playing European teams, they were likely exhibition games, which are not counted towards the limit.

RPI played UVM two years ago at the Pavilion de la Jeunesse in Quebec, I don't know how the rules work out for that game.

FreddyFoyle
12-21-2010, 02:57 PM
Thanks. I consider myself a half decent amateur researcher and was facing the prospect of having to contact the NCAA (isn't that like asking for directions while driving?) directly.

The rules are simpler and defined in the CIS conferences. All teams play 28 conference games. Everything else, such as OOC are exhibition games and don't count in the stats. I believe the conferences all allow unlimited exhibition games if you can find the time and money to schedule them. UNB has probably the most ambitious exhibition schedule in the CIS with 11 games this season, including hosting Providence on January 1st and 2nd.

If their scheduled game against AHL's Portland hadn't fallen through this fall they would have hit the magic number of 40 games played this season before playoffs.

FlagDUDE08
12-21-2010, 03:13 PM
Thanks. I consider myself a half decent amateur researcher and was facing the prospect of having to contact the NCAA (isn't that like asking for directions while driving?) directly.

The rules are simpler and defined in the CIS conferences. All teams play 28 conference games. Everything else, such as OOC are exhibition games and don't count in the stats. I believe the conferences all allow unlimited exhibition games if you can find the time and money to schedule them. UNB has probably the most ambitious exhibition schedule in the CIS with 11 games this season, including hosting Providence on January 1st and 2nd.

If their scheduled game against AHL's Portland hadn't fallen through this fall they would have hit the magic number of 40 games played this season before playoffs.

Here's a question, though: Do all of your conferences have the same number of teams? In the NCAA, they don't. In fact, while the CHA was around, each of the teams would play each other 4 times, and then the rest was non-conference, meaning they had an average of about 16 in-conference games (depending on how many teams were in at the time). Also, Hockey East has 10, CCHA has 11, ECAC has 12 (6 ivy, 6 non-ivy), WCHA and Atlantic now with 12. Let's also add some travel considerations in. If Hockey East was up to 12 teams, I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to go with a schedule similar to ECAC non-ivies, where they have 12 OOC games. However, the western leagues have to travel a lot more, so they do weekend series (as opposed to travel partners like is done in the ECAC), and typically OOC opponents (especially the eastern ones) must travel to them, obviously with some exception of 2-3 year series where they'll play in one location one year, and then have a return trip to the other location the next year.

I assume the ivy league rule is quite old and was grandfathered for all sports, although I'd defer further information on that to someone who actually supports an ivy league team.

FreddyFoyle
12-21-2010, 03:50 PM
Here's a question, though: Do all of your conferences have the same number of teams?

No.
AUS has 8 teams. OUA East has 10 teams. OUA West has 9 teams. Canada West has 7 teams.
Scheduling is easy in AUS - play everyone four times.
OUA is tricky. It is a double-conference because they include the hockey schools from the province of Quebec (who have their own conference for other sports), plus they'be been adding the expansion teams. As I understand their schedule you play 25 to 26 games in your division in an unbalanced schedule, and the other 2 or 3 games in the other division.
In Canada West you play everyone a minimum of 4 times (usually twice per weekend because of long travel) and then two of the teams twice more.

As for exhibition games, all of the teams will play a few in-conference exhibition games in the preseason, and many will travel to the States one weekend to play NCAA teams, and there are a few preseason and holiday tournaments that teams travel out of conference for. As well, some teams if they can afford it will schedule out of conference exhibition road trips in the fall (UNB, UQTR) or at Christmas (McGill).

davyd83
12-21-2010, 04:06 PM
There are 34 games allowed. Exemptions are granted for games in Alaska, the Hall of Fame game and the Ice Breaker. Wisconsin plays 2 at Alaska-Anchorage this year and played in the IceBreaker and will play 38 regular season games this year.

FreddyFoyle
12-21-2010, 04:11 PM
Until a few years ago the CIS used to be full of traditional divisions by geography. Thus the AUS had two divisions, the OUA four, and Canada West two. Just about everyone made the playoffs. Then the AUS combined the teams in one division, gave first round playoff byes to the top two teams and dropped the final two teams from playoffs. This has certainly enhanced the competitiveness of the AUS in my opinion. The OUA was experiencing growth, and unbalanced divisions on a competitive basis, so they reorganized in two divisions and basically forced the weaker teams to play more outside of their little division. This is still a work in progress. The weak sisters haven't been that more competitive, and have been overshadowed by the expansion teams. A couple of years ago Canada West followed the AUS model, only they drop the bottom 3 teams (out of 7 in the conference) from the playoffs. I thought this would make them more competitive, but some coaches out there tell me it is worse because you can feel you've been eliminated by Christmas if you have a slow start.

Btw, if you are interested, here is last season's standings by conference (http://english.cis-sic.ca/sports/mice/2009-10/standings-conf) in the CIS. Despite UNB's record season last year, they were upset in the AUS playoffs and Saint Mary's went on to win their first ever CIS hockey championship against Alberta.

LynahFan
12-21-2010, 06:26 PM
Were they playing NCAA or European teams? If they were playing European teams, they were likely exhibition games, which are not counted towards the limit.

RPI played UVM two years ago at the Pavilion de la Jeunesse in Quebec, I don't know how the rules work out for that game.

IIRC, there's an explicit NCAA rule relating to Euro tours - I believe schools are only allowed a certain number of games per trip, and only allowed to do one such trip per four years (so that each player nominally can only go once, except for red-shirts, etc).

kdiff77
12-21-2010, 09:01 PM
I assume the ivy league rule is quite old and was grandfathered for all sports, although I'd defer further information on that to someone who actually supports an ivy league team.

Pretty much. The Ivy League has all these completely useless rules that end up being nothing more than hindrances. In particular, fans of Ivy League football have been outraged forever because the teams are not allowed to participate in the playoffs, even the champion, and each team is limited to just ten games. Because of this, and because there is no mini tournament within the league, nothing outside of conference play matters. So really, you play seven meaningful games a year, and most teams' seasons are effectively over by late October. The reason given for not wanting playoffs is that they would conflict with exams- but so do hockey games and basketball games played in December, as do the lacrosse playoffs in the spring (Cornell can tell you about this- I believe they had exams on the day of a NCAA Tournament game last season).

While hockey's rules aren't quite so stupid, it still hurts our abilities to recruit good players when the Ivy teams only play 29 games a year, as opposed to the 34+ that almost everyone else does. Ivy basketball also has a limit on games played, and there is no league tournament at the conclusion of the season even though literally every other conference has one.

I appreciate that we want to maintain the importance of academics by not granting athletic scholarships, but I simply do not understand the aforementioned rules which seem to do nothing but deem our league as irrelevant. Luckily, hockey has been able to maintain relevancy through the years, but the basketball and football programs have both collectively suffered.

jcarter7669
12-22-2010, 07:22 AM
It would seem that the NCAA in their infinite wisdom would regulate OOC games. In terms of PWR playing more OOC games could provide an advantage. Being able to play 12 OOC as a non-ivy ECAC team would seem to be a boon for decent teams (I know it's the ECAC, but for illustration purposes) it would seem to be beneficial. Maybe not, maybe I'm not thinking clearly at 7:30 a.m. .....

FlagDUDE08
12-22-2010, 07:52 AM
It would seem that the NCAA in their infinite wisdom would regulate OOC games. In terms of PWR playing more OOC games could provide an advantage. Being able to play 12 OOC as a non-ivy ECAC team would seem to be a boon for decent teams (I know it's the ECAC, but for illustration purposes) it would seem to be beneficial. Maybe not, maybe I'm not thinking clearly at 7:30 a.m. .....

In our current OOC economy, having such an imbalance isn't necessarily a good thing, as we do find ourselves playing each other to fill the gaps. Granted Clarkson and SLU will almost always play at least one OOC game at a neutral site, RPI and Union started doing this recently as "a tune-up for league play", but something like the Governor's Cup was almost always ECAC non-ivies (except the final year when Robert Morris played; Clarkson was SUPPOSED to play but didn't). I can't remember what the CHA teams did when they had 18 NC games.

BTW jcarter, remember your team's situation 6 years ago. ;)

Alton
12-22-2010, 11:58 AM
If you really want to see the online source, it is in Bylaw 17.12.5.3 (pages 273-274) in the NCAA Division I Manual: http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D111.pdf.

The game limit is 34. The following games do not count against the 34-game limit, but do count in official NCAA Statistics and Records--
* Hockey Hall of Fame Game--a single fundraising game conducted every year
* Ice Breaker Tournament--a single 4-team, 2-game tournament conducted every year
* Any game played in Hawaii or Alaska--only by a school from outside those states against a school inside that state
* Conference championship tournament
* NCAA tournament

Also not counting against the 34-game limit, and not counting in NCAA statistics--
* Home game against a foreign team, such as a Canadian University or a foreign national team--limit one
* One away tour against foreign teams--limit one tour every four years.
* US National Teams--a single game per year against any US National Team (e.g., Olympic Team, World Junior Team, Under-18 Development Team, etc.)
* "Alumni game" (exhibition of current players vs alumni of the school)--limit one
* Certain other charity game activities are also permitted, but generally may not involve the entire team.

Typically, a team will play about 34-38 regular-season games plus 1-2 exhibitions. Teams rarely play more than 8-10 playoff games, so I would be surprised if any team has managed to play 50 games in a season (counting exhibitions) since the basic limit was lowered from 38 to 34.

GopherBigGuy911
12-22-2010, 12:24 PM
If you really want to see the online source, it is in Bylaw 17.12.5.3 (pages 273-274) in the NCAA Division I Manual: http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D111.pdf.

The game limit is 34. The following games do not count against the 34-game limit, but do count in official NCAA Statistics and Records--
* Hockey Hall of Fame Game--a single fundraising game conducted every year
* Ice Breaker Tournament--a single 4-team, 2-game tournament conducted every year
* Any game played in Hawaii or Alaska--only by a school from outside those states against a school inside that state
* Conference championship tournament
* NCAA tournament

Also not counting against the 34-game limit, and not counting in NCAA statistics--
* Home game against a foreign team, such as a Canadian University or a foreign national team--limit one
* One away tour against foreign teams--limit one tour every four years.
* US National Teams--a single game per year against any US National Team (e.g., Olympic Team, World Junior Team, Under-18 Development Team, etc.)
* "Alumni game" (exhibition of current players vs alumni of the school)--limit one
* Certain other charity game activities are also permitted, but generally may not involve the entire team.

Typically, a team will play about 34-38 regular-season games plus 1-2 exhibitions. Teams rarely play more than 8-10 playoff games, so I would be surprised if any team has managed to play 50 games in a season (counting exhibitions) since the basic limit was lowered from 38 to 34.

The Hell Ya Say... Hawaii huh... Well WHEN the BTHC comes about I am more than for a nice Hawaiian vacation for Minnesota, No Dak, Sconi, and Hawaii if they had a team around Christmas time :P

FlagDUDE08
12-22-2010, 01:00 PM
The Hell Ya Say... Hawaii huh... Well WHEN the BTHC comes about I am more than for a nice Hawaiian vacation for Minnesota, No Dak, Sconi, and Hawaii if they had a team around Christmas time :P

Dirty's more likely to get his AIC jersey. :rolleyes:

I didn't know the Hockey East schism was because of number of games... I guess I could see that if only western teams would count towards non-conference (and the MAAC is, well, the MAAC).

ClOuD 9
12-22-2010, 06:26 PM
I didn't know the Hockey East schism was because of number of games...
In addition to the rumored split of the Ivy League schools from the ECAC. The ECAC went to three divisions in '79: Ivy (self-explanatory), West (Clarkson, 'Gate, RPI, SLU, UVM), and East (BC, BU, Maine, UNH, NU, PC) - the West having one less team probably didn't help the scheduling issues either. Interestingly, while BC, BU, UNH, NU and PC all left in June, the University of Maine waited until the fall to depart - is it too late to give them back? ;)

I'd be interested to read more on this if anyone could provide some links as this was all before my time.

Happy
12-22-2010, 06:36 PM
It would seem that the NCAA in their infinite wisdom would regulate OOC games. In terms of PWR playing more OOC games could provide an advantage. Being able to play 12 OOC as a non-ivy ECAC team would seem to be a boon for decent teams (I know it's the ECAC, but for illustration purposes) it would seem to be beneficial. Maybe not, maybe I'm not thinking clearly at 7:30 a.m. .....

There is no reason for the NCAA to get involved with scheduling. bad idea. They would screw it up way beyond any reasonable plan you had.

FreddyFoyle
12-22-2010, 06:38 PM
Thanks Alton ... that's exactly the kind of documentation I was looking for, but couldn't find.

ClOuD 9
12-22-2010, 06:50 PM
More on the ECAC-Hockey East split:

The original split came over the issue of athletic scholarships, which Hockey East teams grant and most Eastern College Athletic Conference schools do not, and academic standards, with the influential Ivy League academic deans recommending a divorce.
COLLEGE HOCKEY; Unification Considered by Two Leagues (http://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/09/sports/college-hockey-unification-considered-by-two-leagues.html?src=pm) The New York Times - November 09, 1988