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Muskieman
03-14-2011, 03:04 PM
So I went to Archie Moore's to pick up some food post-game last night and who's there but Muskie and Spaceman, i think i finally got it right. They were preparing for their respective trips home with some lubrication and food-to-go. We chatted briefly about the series and they were very gracious. If they are representative of SLU fans then I am happy to share a beer with all of you.

I wasn't expecting the level of physicality from SLU based on what I saw in the regular season, but they did what they needed to do to be competitive. It caught me off-guard and I found some players to hate, which for me is part of being a fan. I love a good villain. But I will never hold my perceptions of a team to the fans of the team. If you can take me, I'm happy to talk trash on these boards and philosophize in person. Thank you guys for an emotional and exciting weekend.

It was nice meeting you as well. As I told you last night after the game at Archie Moore's - bad officiating both-ways aside, the only real issue I had was the knee on Baker and that, "I didn't want to discuss it further." I'll add here that a bunch of us had a birds-eye view of it and it was deliberate. Good luck to Justin for a speedy recovery from a very cheap shot.

I mingled with several Yale fans over the weekend, because I'll talk to anybody who will listen, including strangers. One guy in particular, who I met when we played there in late-January, said that Carey, Essery, Baker, and others have to be seniors. When I told him that all of the guys he mentioned were freshman, he said. "you've got to be kidding me." He's been a Yale fan for 40+ years.

Thank you, SLU, for giving it all that you had. Thank you, also, to the seniors for their many contributions. I hope to see many of our fans at the Banquet on 4/3.

Larriecat
03-14-2011, 03:26 PM
In the end, Yale is clearly a more skilled team than our beloved Saints. I was amazed at the whining and complaining that went on after every play. Yale captain, Jimmy Martin, has to be the biggest, whiney baby I have seen in college hockey....perhaps ever. In his mind, no one was allowed to get anywhere near him. It's too bad, he is a pretty good player, but the constant crying is too much.

I found most of their hits to be of the cheap shot variety. There is a big difference between being tough and being cheap. Yale is not tough and would be smart to avoid getting into a hitting contest with any of the good teams. I didn't notice one kid on Yale that I would categorize as tough. I could be wrong, but I do not expect them to go far in the NCAA tournament.

Things just seemed a little out of sync with the Saints all year. If everyone sticks around, next year will be much better than folks think. Hope springs eternal in mid March!

goblue78
03-14-2011, 07:05 PM
You're right, Larriecat. Yale is not a hitting team. For one thing, they're small, especially at defense. Does Martin complain? Yes, he does. But what has complaining got to do with anything? If play is stopped, it's irrelevant, and if play is going on, don't you want him complaining rather than playing hockey? If your problem is that refs finally give in to the complaints, take it up with the refs, not the player. Whining is a problem is pickup hockey... I don't see why it's a problem in a refereed game. Not to mention he's sometimes justified.

redrocker
03-14-2011, 09:58 PM
In the end, Yale is clearly a more skilled team than our beloved Saints. I was amazed at the whining and complaining that went on after every play. Yale captain, Jimmy Martin, has to be the biggest, whiney baby I have seen in college hockey....perhaps ever. In his mind, no one was allowed to get anywhere near him. It's too bad, he is a pretty good player, but the constant crying is too much.

I found most of their hits to be of the cheap shot variety. There is a big difference between being tough and being cheap. Yale is not tough and would be smart to avoid getting into a hitting contest with any of the good teams. I didn't notice one kid on Yale that I would categorize as tough. I could be wrong, but I do not expect them to go far in the NCAA tournament.

Things just seemed a little out of sync with the Saints all year. If everyone sticks around, next year will be much better than folks think. Hope springs eternal in mid March!

Interesting to characterize Yale as cheap, since Sean Flanagan received a suspension from the ECAC for one of the biggest cheap shots seen all year, tripping Yale's O'Neill into the boards after an empty net goal during the RS.

The officiating was bad, both ways, all three games. There's going to be complaining when it's that bad. And it came from both sides.

LTsatch
03-14-2011, 10:10 PM
Martin is the Captain of the team it is his job to voice his concerns to the horrible refs. Think about it, we, and I mean both sides fans thought the officiating was horrendous and screamed at the top of our lungs about it. Imagine how the players on the ice felt. As far as chippiness goes in the series I give the Saints the lead 60 to 40 percent, which is about the way the penalties were given out. You have a decent team but the penalties are your undoing.

Edit
Checked the penalties and the infractions handed out for the series and they were 22 SLU-19 Yale. SLU led the totals in Boarding, Cross-checking, roughing and slashing. Yale took the lead for tripping and hooking.

Got 6, Want More
03-14-2011, 10:15 PM
Interesting to characterize Yale as cheap, since Sean Flanagan received a suspension from the ECAC for one of the biggest cheap shots seen all year, tripping Yale's O'Neill into the boards after an empty net goal during the RS.

The officiating was bad, both ways, all three games. There's going to be complaining when it's that bad. And it came from both sides.

Didn't see Flanagan's play but that was very uncharacterstic of him. He is a solid, good kid, who plays an honest game. Glad O'Neill did not get hurt. Unfortunately, Baker did get hurt badly and that was a cheap shot as well. Not only was neither Yale player suspended like Flanagan was, but they weren't even assessed a penalty.

goblue78
03-14-2011, 10:23 PM
Like you, Got 6, I had to watch that play on the Lo-res internet feed, and of course opinions can vary and are no doubt filtered through loyalties, but the hit on Baker looked more unfortunate/awkward than intentional/dirty to me. Everyone grants Baker had his head down, and the fact that the contact was leg-leg as Baker was turning suggests to me a very unfortunate accident. Of course, everyone hopes he heals and is as good as new next season. As Yale is trying to get a broken-legged player back for the NCAAs *and a senior at that), I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree with your assessment. That said, we clearly agree on the idiot broadcaster who, by the way, missed that play almost completely.

Got 6, Want More
03-14-2011, 10:26 PM
You're right, Larriecat. Yale is not a hitting team. For one thing, they're small, especially at defense. Does Martin complain? Yes, he does. But what has complaining got to do with anything? If play is stopped, it's irrelevant, and if play is going on, don't you want him complaining rather than playing hockey? If your problem is that refs finally give in to the complaints, take it up with the refs, not the player. Whining is a problem is pickup hockey... I don't see why it's a problem in a refereed game. Not to mention he's sometimes justified.

I have no problem with Yale's style of play or that they are speed / skill team versus a brawn / physical team. What was uncalled for was the chirping and the taunting and I did not see SLU do that at all. Further, look at the coaches. One side you have Marsh that rarely says anything to the refs (possibly to his teams detriment but he believes it serves no purpose and takes away from the focus of the players) and on the other you had Allain who did not shut up.

Also, as I said before, it actually matters who started it. After watching Baker get injured on a cheapshot, after watching Pete Child get cross checked from behind into the boards giving him a stinger and after watching Mobley get cross-checked in his face all without calls probably two of which should have been majors, it escalates. I commend Marsh for calling a timeout late on Sunday and telling the guys to settle down.

Finally, that level of chirping with other competent refs in the NCAA's will not serve Yale well. It displayed a level of arrogance that detracts from the talent and what they can do on the ice. SLU has never been regarded as a dirty team. Assigning blame at this point in time is pointless. ECAC refs are universally awful and the only part of the league that really makes me angry and makes me want to stop being a fan, but it is not often that I watch a game and see another team being responsible for causing the chippiness to escalate to the level of farcical nastiness that both teams participated in this weekend.

LTsatch
03-14-2011, 10:30 PM
Didn't see Flanagan's play but that was very uncharacterstic of him. He is a solid, good kid, who plays an honest game. Glad O'Neill did not get hurt. Unfortunately, Baker did get hurt badly and that was a cheap shot as well. Not only was neither Yale player suspended like Flanagan was, but they weren't even assessed a penalty.

Now that I think about it, that hit may be the reason that this whole thing got ugly, bad blood from the start.

Got 6, Want More
03-14-2011, 10:34 PM
Like you, Got 6, I had to watch that play on the Lo-res internet feed, and of course opinions can vary and are no doubt filtered through loyalties, but the hit on Baker looked more unfortunate/awkward than intentional/dirty to me. Everyone grants Baker had his head down, and the fact that the contact was leg-leg as Baker was turning suggests to me a very unfortunate accident. Of course, everyone hopes he heals and is as good as new next season. As Yale is trying to get a broken-legged player back for the NCAAs *and a senior at that), I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree with your assessment. That said, we clearly agree on the idiot broadcaster who, by the way, missed that play almost completely.

I watched it several times on tape. Baker was being pulled down from behind and the Yale player basically did a cannonball into him hitting both knee on knee and high. I do not think it was intentional which helps a bit, but it was clearly a penalty.

What I am really saying is that teams should respect each other and the game even if the refs are incompetent. I think that was an issue in this series and being honest I feel pretty confident in saying SLU respected Yale coming in but lost a ton of respect through this series not only for hits like that but the chirping and taunting which is just poor sportsmanship. I will do my best to swallow my current distaste for Yale when they are in the NCAA's but I really think the AD or the head coach at Yale needs to reflect a bit on all that transpired. Yale playing their game is a thing of beauty, but what I remember from the weekend is nothing but ugliness. (Note, I did tape the game and have rewatched it since trying to watch it live).

Got 6, Want More
03-14-2011, 10:37 PM
Now that I think about it, that hit may be the reason that this whole thing got ugly, bad blood from the start.

Not sure....Friday was not nearly as bad as Saturday or Sunday and that is true even after Yale buried three in a row on the PP.

hockeyplayer1015
03-14-2011, 10:43 PM
Not sure....Friday was not nearly as bad as Saturday or Sunday and that is true even after Yale buried three in a row on the PP.

I came away from Friday thinking that was a good hockey game overall. Saturday was ugly all around, and Sunday was somewhere in between, not great hockey but not a gongshow either.

goblue78
03-14-2011, 10:53 PM
Got 6, I respect your opinion, and you've obviously studied the tape and I only saw it sort of live. And the decision had to be made live. That doesn't make you wrong by any means, but what penalty would you have called exactly? Roughing? Isn't there an element of intent to that? It wasn't hitting from behiind. As to mutual respect I think we agree that the refs got in the way. I have nothing but respect for Marsh and everything I know about him suggests that he is an outstanding teacher, coach and gentleman. But I have no doubt that Allain is going to back his players and will do what he thinks is necessary. I compare him to Bobby Cox... he got thrown a lot, but players would go to war for him. It's just a different way of approaching coaching and it won't appeal to a lot of opponents, and it's obviously very different from the Marsh model. But that doesn't make either one of them wrong. By the way, it's not "Win at any cost." It's more just a personality thing. Finally, on whether Yale will be well served by complaining when they feel aggrieved we'll see. But if it costs them, it's on them. Thanks for the warning.

Got 6, Want More
03-15-2011, 09:52 PM
Got 6, I respect your opinion, and you've obviously studied the tape and I only saw it sort of live. And the decision had to be made live. That doesn't make you wrong by any means, but what penalty would you have called exactly? Roughing? Isn't there an element of intent to that? It wasn't hitting from behiind. As to mutual respect I think we agree that the refs got in the way. I have nothing but respect for Marsh and everything I know about him suggests that he is an outstanding teacher, coach and gentleman. But I have no doubt that Allain is going to back his players and will do what he thinks is necessary. I compare him to Bobby Cox... he got thrown a lot, but players would go to war for him. It's just a different way of approaching coaching and it won't appeal to a lot of opponents, and it's obviously very different from the Marsh model. But that doesn't make either one of them wrong. By the way, it's not "Win at any cost." It's more just a personality thing. Finally, on whether Yale will be well served by complaining when they feel aggrieved we'll see. But if it costs them, it's on them. Thanks for the warning.

I would say it was hooking or holding for the guy behind him and CLEARLY Charging and Kneeing on the guy coming at him from the front.

Yeah, well the players went to war too for Reggie Dunlop. It doesn't make antagonizing behavior and taunting any more appealing.

And, to be honest, Yale is a pretty cocky team with a pretty cocky coach considering they haven't won anything with him as coach. They have been a top seed, but so far no ECAC Championships and no NCAA success. I'll just say one more thing and leave it at that...I know several people connected to Yale hockey who were not pleased with what they witnessed on the ice. And to me, college hockey in the ECAC should be about teaching young men how to be good men. Sorry, my nose will be plugged next time I see Allain because his behavior was approaching the level of d-baggedness of your neighbors from Hamden.

LTsatch
03-15-2011, 10:08 PM
so far no ECAC Championships and no NCAA success.

Sorry I beg to differ on that point. They won the ECAC tournament in 2009 and the Cleary Cup in both 2009 and 2010, made the final eight in the NCAA's last year, and the final 16 in 2009 all with Allain. Yale will be a number one seed in the NCAA tourney this year and is still playing this weekend. I am sure SLU fans would love that type of record for the last three years!

As far as cockiness and rough play, this past weekend was quite frankly the only time Yale even came close to slugging it out with another team,
I have witnessed in person all of the home and three road games this year, and none of the other series were even close to as nasty as last week. I would call it an uncharacteristic weekend for both teams and leave it at that.

critsports
03-16-2011, 01:28 AM
As far as cockiness and rough play, this past weekend was quite frankly the only time Yale even came close to slugging it out with another team, I have witnessed in person all of the home and three road games this year, and none of the other series were even close to as nasty as last week. I would call it an uncharacteristic weekend for both teams and leave it at that.

I have been so busy at work and traveling that I haven't had a spare moment to weigh in on the discourse. I really wanted to say more about my feelings on the Ylae thread but didn't out of respect for everyone trying to be civil. But as this is an SLU thread I feel entitled to be a little more open and direct about what I saw and heard.

First with regard to not seeing Ylae come close to slugging it out with another team. I think there is one thing you (and all of us) are not considering and it's this......how many times this year did you see Yale (or we see SLU) play the SAME TEAM three nights in a row?????

In the NHL I have heard the expression about teams playing a 7 game series in that they play enough games to "get the hate on". I think some of what we saw is perhaps related to that theory. Playing the same team three nights in a row can breed something beyond the normal passion or rivalry a couple of weekend games against different teams each night might bring.

I had the opportunity to talk to a couple of players and they echoed a little bit of what Got6 mentions. As the series went from game one to game two (and the posturing, diving, chirping and some taunting increased) several SLU players commented that they "lost a lot of respect" for the Ylae players. One player in particular who could probably be described as a "the pacifist of hockey players" on our team commented that by the third period of game two he was so furious from the nonsense, he wanted to punch a Ylae player. So if that was how our most laid back player felt, I can only imagine how the guys who have the shorter fuses must have felt. Certainly we saw how they reacted and how things escalated.

Anyhow.......for what it's worth with SLU winning game one which I am sure shocked and perhaps even embarrassed Yale (losing for the first time on home ice)....by the time game two rolled around Allain probably had his boys pretty amped up and when things started to get rough and the officials lost control things went down hill from there.

The playoffs are a different animal from the regular season and I will chalk a lot up to that fact. A lot was made of the fact that we (SLU) had to play physical to "take Yale off their game". In the end maybe what happened was really the other way around!!!! Maybe all the chirping, complaining, diving, etc. actually got SLU out of a disciplined checking game and into a more undisciplined march to the penalty box which got us off our game??? Hmmmmmm......just some food for thought!!

goblue78
03-16-2011, 08:00 AM
I think there's a lot to that, critsports. And believe me... Your honest comments are welcome on the Yale thread anytime.

TimU
03-16-2011, 08:11 AM
I A lot was made of the fact that we (SLU) had to play physical to "take Yale off their game".

. . . which in my mind is silly. The Saints are not a physical team, they're a skating team. As good as the PK was this year, there is NO WAY they would purposely risk putting Ylae's PP on the ice. And let's not forget that in Game 1, Ylae scored on its first three power play opportunities - if SLU had come in with any ideas about changing their style to "take Ylae off their game," it would have gone out the window about five minutes into the first period on Friday. Honestly, we had one really good period in the series, and it definitely wasn't the result of Saint players elbowing people in the head.

SLU was able to beat Ylae twice this year - despite being a clearly weaker team overall - because Ylae played to SLU's strengths. The first four games - even Ylae's first 4-1 win - were very competitive, for the same reason that we beat RPI once, beat UNH, and lost (as usual) to Brown. SLU didn't have to play more physical to take Ylae off its game. SLU had to rely on its skating abilities and goaltending and if at all possible avoid playing a man down, which was tantamount to suicide. They wanted a fast, up-and-down game - all season long when they spent long periods of time in center ice and the defensive zone, they eventually made killer mistakes that cost them wins.

And I'm not saying that Ylae felt like they had to "take SLU off their game." I don't think they were motivated to play dirty hockey either. They had plenty of speed, and more than enough depth of talent and skill, to win straight up. Which they did.

DisplacedCornellian
03-16-2011, 08:50 AM
And, to be honest, Yale is a pretty cocky team with a pretty cocky coach considering they haven't won anything with him as coach. They have been a top seed, but so far no ECAC Championships and no NCAA success.
Not disagreeing with you about Allain's attitude - but it seems you are forgetting Yale's ECAC championship only 2 years ago - a 5-0 smoking of Cornell. I'm still trying to forget that one. :)

hockeyplayer1015
03-16-2011, 09:29 AM
Carey officially named to the ECAC All-Rookie squad.

http://www.uscho.com/2011/03/16/ecac-names-all-league-all-rookie-squads/