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View Full Version : Rules question: Too many men on ice.



Freddie
10-11-2010, 04:02 PM
Here's the situation: A stoppage in play will result in a faceoff deep in Team A zone with 2 seconds remaining in the period. Team B goalie heads for the bench in favor of an extra attacker. The extra forward takes his place in the attacking zone, but the coach sends the goalie back out. All this has happened while play is dead.

Before the linesman drops the puck, one of the other officials notices that Team B has too many men on the ice, and tells them somebody has to go back to the bench.

Is this proper? Or should they have allowed play to begin then whisteled a penalty against Team B?

FiveHole12
10-11-2010, 04:31 PM
Here's the situation: A stoppage in play will result in a faceoff deep in Team A zone with 2 seconds remaining in the period. Team B goalie heads for the bench in favor of an extra attacker. The extra forward takes his place in the attacking zone, but the coach sends the goalie back out. All this has happened while play is dead.

Before the linesman drops the puck, one of the other officials notices that Team B has too many men on the ice, and tells them somebody has to go back to the bench.

Is this proper? Or should they have allowed play to begin then whisteled a penalty against Team B?
Not sure about the too many men call with the clock stopped, but they could have slapped them with a delay of game penalty.

FlagDUDE08
10-11-2010, 04:33 PM
Or at least kicked them out of the face-off and corrected the problem.

I take it this happened during a game you followed? What was called by the referee?

hockeyplayer1015
10-11-2010, 04:34 PM
Here's the situation: A stoppage in play will result in a faceoff deep in Team A zone with 2 seconds remaining in the period. Team B goalie heads for the bench in favor of an extra attacker. The extra forward takes his place in the attacking zone, but the coach sends the goalie back out. All this has happened while play is dead.

Before the linesman drops the puck, one of the other officials notices that Team B has too many men on the ice, and tells them somebody has to go back to the bench.

Is this proper? Or should they have allowed play to begin then whisteled a penalty against Team B?

That should be fairly commonplace. Delay of game is probably at the referee's discretion, but if one of the refs notices it, they shouldn't allow play to begin only to slap them with a penalty, as it just looks bad on the refs.

Alton
10-11-2010, 04:45 PM
The relevant rule, if you squint at it a little, is 2-5-b-5: "The official dropping the puck shall set the players and hold the puck at the beltline. When the players are legally set, the official shall drop the puck." Obviously, having too many players is not being "legally set," and so the linesman is not supposed to drop the puck if he sees that a team has too many players on the ice.

This happens rather frequently--not with the goalie, but with an extra skater on the ice. If it doesn't seem to be an attempt to deceive or hold up the game, the ref won't call anything or will just give the offending team a warning.

KnowItAll
10-11-2010, 05:40 PM
The relevant rule, if you squint at it a little, is 2-5-b-5: "The official dropping the puck shall set the players and hold the puck at the beltline. When the players are legally set, the official shall drop the puck." Obviously, having too many players is not being "legally set," and so the linesman is not supposed to drop the puck if he sees that a team has too many players on the ice.

This happens rather frequently--not with the goalie, but with an extra skater on the ice. If it doesn't seem to be an attempt to deceive or hold up the game, the ref won't call anything or will just give the offending team a warning.

keep going, ssection k:
"and, while
the officials shall not begin play with extra players on either team, the
responsibility of playing with the proper number rests with the teams."

so, in NCAA hockey, they may call a minor for too many men.
in USA hockey (Olympics), they may not.

Alton
10-11-2010, 06:41 PM
keep going, section k:
"and, while
the officials shall not begin play with extra players on either team, the
responsibility of playing with the proper number rests with the teams."

so, in NCAA hockey, they may call a minor for too many men.


Yes...can't believe I missed that. So--there's your answer, Freddie. It is a little hard to parse, but it seems to me that if the officials are aware of a team with an extra player, they are not supposed to drop the puck. If they are not aware and they do drop the puck, then they can call a penalty on the team with the extra player once they do notice it.

I agree with hp1015 that it would look pretty bad for the linesman to drop the puck knowing there is an extra player and then immediately whistle a penalty.

IrishHockeyFan
10-11-2010, 06:43 PM
keep going, ssection k:
"and, while
the officials shall not begin play with extra players on either team, the
responsibility of playing with the proper number rests with the teams."

so, in NCAA hockey, they may call a minor for too many men.
in USA hockey (Olympics), they may not.


Actually the responsibility with dropping the puck with the proper amount of players (or fewer) rests with the officials. The words "shall" and "extra" are included for a reason. If it was the final responsibility of the coaches the word used would be "should", and there would not be a reference to any extra players. Further wording placing responsibility on the teams leaves room for officials to call delay of game or unsportsmanlike conduct penalties on a team or coach who deliberately flaunts the rule and delays putting a proper number of skaters on the ice, or fewer. A referee can, will, and should drop the puck if you do not have ENOUGH players on the ice after waiting a reasonable amount of time. I've seen it done.

redhawkman10
10-11-2010, 06:58 PM
Here's the situation: A stoppage in play will result in a faceoff deep in Team A zone with 2 seconds remaining in the period. Team B goalie heads for the bench in favor of an extra attacker. The extra forward takes his place in the attacking zone, but the coach sends the goalie back out. All this has happened while play is dead.

Before the linesman drops the puck, one of the other officials notices that Team B has too many men on the ice, and tells them somebody has to go back to the bench.

Is this proper? Or should they have allowed play to begin then whisteled a penalty against Team B?

That is proper, you can't asses as too many men on the ice penalty before play is started. Its the officials responsibility that the proper number of players are on the ice. However if they were suppose to have 5 and only had 4, that technically isn't the officials responsibility and play does not have to be stopped.

With that said, if a coach is doing that a Delay of Game penalty could be called because of all the changes and having the wrong number of players on the ice in that specific situation.

redhawkman10
10-11-2010, 07:02 PM
keep going, ssection k:
"and, while
the officials shall not begin play with extra players on either team, the
responsibility of playing with the proper number rests with the teams."

so, in NCAA hockey, they may call a minor for too many men.
in USA hockey (Olympics), they may not.


Yes...can't believe I missed that. So--there's your answer, Freddie. It is a little hard to parse, but it seems to me that if the officials are aware of a team with an extra player, they are not supposed to drop the puck. If they are not aware and they do drop the puck, then they can call a penalty on the team with the extra player once they do notice it.

I agree with hp1015 that it would look pretty bad for the linesman to drop the puck knowing there is an extra player and then immediately whistle a penalty.

wrong, the official can not drop the puck with a team having more than the allowed number of players on the ice. If they do it is their mistake and you cannot give a too many players on the ice penalty for an officials error. If you read the rule closely enough it says an official shall not drop the puck with extra players on the ice. It is the coaches responsibility to put the proper number of players on the ice but an official can not start play by dropping the puck with extra players on the ice.

sbkbghockey
10-11-2010, 08:15 PM
This is one of the little neumerous things coaches do to get a few extra seconds of time. Esp if Team A is the home change with last change. Most of the time the ref won't call a delay of game penalty and just waits; or even better from the coaches prospective, wastes more time by talking to the coach about making faster changes.

With the goalie pulled and game on the line, giving the top players who have probably been playing for most of the last 5 mins a bit of extra time.

redhawkman10
10-11-2010, 09:16 PM
This is one of the little neumerous things coaches do to get a few extra seconds of time. Esp if Team A is the home change with last change. Most of the time the ref won't call a delay of game penalty and just waits; or even better from the coaches prospective, wastes more time by talking to the coach about making faster changes.

With the goalie pulled and game on the line, giving the top players who have probably been playing for most of the last 5 mins a bit of extra time.


Your right, and it happens too often IMO. Your also right that the problem is most, not all, but most officials would never call a delay of game in that situation when in fact that would be the correct call. This situation has come up numerous times in officiating seminars. Problem is if the official hasn't given any warnings going into that situation it is hard to make a delay call without a warning. That is the common theme in the discussions, a warning must be given first, if one has already been given a delay of game penalty is warranted.

Alton
10-11-2010, 10:22 PM
wrong, the official can not drop the puck with a team having more than the allowed number of players on the ice. If they do it is their mistake and you cannot give a too many players on the ice penalty for an officials error. If you read the rule closely enough it says an official shall not drop the puck with extra players on the ice. It is the coaches responsibility to put the proper number of players on the ice but an official can not start play by dropping the puck with extra players on the ice.

We do not disagree; your point was the same as mine, but I took it one step further--what if the refs miscount and drop the puck anyway?

Of course, it's possible that they will make a mistake and drop the puck anyway, at which point they could whistle the penalty, but as you say the rule makes it clear that the officials are not to drop the puck if they detect either team has extra players on the ice.

goldy_331
10-12-2010, 08:42 AM
We do not disagree; your point was the same as mine, but I took it one step further--what if the refs miscount and drop the puck anyway?

Of course, it's possible that they will make a mistake and drop the puck anyway, at which point they could whistle the penalty, but as you say the rule makes it clear that the officials are not to drop the puck if they detect either team has extra players on the ice.

When I've seen that happen, the refs blow the whistle as soon as they realize the error, reset the clock and drop the puck again from the same dot. I guess if they don't realize it was their mistake, assume someone snuck on the ice, that team will get screwed.

KnowItAll
10-12-2010, 09:56 AM
Your right, and it happens too often IMO. Your also right that the problem is most, not all, but most officials would never call a delay of game in that situation when in fact that would be the correct call. This situation has come up numerous times in officiating seminars. Problem is if the official hasn't given any warnings going into that situation it is hard to make a delay call without a warning. That is the common theme in the discussions, a warning must be given first, if one has already been given a delay of game penalty is warranted.

USA officiating seminars? or NCAA?

the rules are not the same on this issue.

KnowItAll
10-12-2010, 09:58 AM
wrong, the official can not drop the puck with a team having more than the allowed number of players on the ice. If they do it is their mistake and you cannot give a too many players on the ice penalty for an officials error. If you read the rule closely enough it says an official shall not drop the puck with extra players on the ice. It is the coaches responsibility to put the proper number of players on the ice but an official can not start play by dropping the puck with extra players on the ice.

show me.
I showed you where it said AFTER "the officials shall not drop the puck" that "the ultimate responsibility lies with the team"
If one thing comes after another, it is to clarify.

again, this is not a USA, NIHOA, or inhouse/league rulebook, this is NCAA rules

redhawkman10
10-12-2010, 07:03 PM
show me.
I showed you where it said AFTER "the officials shall not drop the puck" that "the ultimate responsibility lies with the team"
If one thing comes after another, it is to clarify.

again, this is not a USA, NIHOA, or inhouse/league rulebook, this is NCAA rules

NCAA seminars. And you posted the rule. Under section K it says the official cannot drop the puck with more than the allowed players. Your taking the "but it ultimately lies with the team to put the right amount of players on the ice" out of context. It is the teams responsibility but if they have more than they are allowed its the officials responsibility to resolve it. However if they should have 5 and only have 4 on the ice that is not the officials responsibility.


We do not disagree; your thought was the same as mine, but I took it one step further--what if the refs miscount and drop the puck anyway?

Of course, it's possible that they will make a mistake and drop the puck anyway, at which point they could whistle the penalty, but as you say the rule makes it clear that the officials are not to drop the puck if they detect either team has extra players on the ice.

If they miscount and drop the puck it is an officials mistake and a penalty cannot be called due to an officials error.

Thats a pretty basic rule, I think people try to read to deep into things sometimes. Don't read too much into the wording of the rule, it defines it clearly. No need to twist it around to mean anything different. The team is responsible ultimately for the correct number of players on the ice, but the officials responsible is to have the right number of players or less.

Although im glad you brought this up, because im sure other people have thought that and we can explain it properly.

MaizeRage
10-12-2010, 08:09 PM
A referee can, will, and should drop the puck if you do not have ENOUGH players on the ice after waiting a reasonable amount of time. I've seen it done.

That's actually not the case.

Rule 2-5-G and H:

f. Both teams must start play with the proper number of players.
PENALTY—First offense: warning.
Second and subsequent offenses: Bench minor.

g. Should a team start with fewer players than allowed and the officials err
in detecting this situation, any subsequently entering players shall not be
eligible to play the puck coming from the player’s defensive zone until
that player has returned to the defensive zone or until possession and
control of the puck have been gained by another player in the neutral
zone or in the player’s attacking zone.
FACEOFF— Where puck was last legally played. Immediate whistle if played by the ineligible player.

redhawkman10
10-12-2010, 09:06 PM
That's actually not the case.

Rule 2-5-G and H:

f. Both teams must start play with the proper number of players.
PENALTY—First offense: warning.
Second and subsequent offenses: Bench minor.

g. Should a team start with fewer players than allowed and the officials err
in detecting this situation, any subsequently entering players shall not be
eligible to play the puck coming from the player’s defensive zone until
that player has returned to the defensive zone or until possession and
control of the puck have been gained by another player in the neutral
zone or in the player’s attacking zone.
FACEOFF— Where puck was last legally played. Immediate whistle if played by the ineligible player.

But it can happen. Irish is more or less thinking about USA hockey situations, I would assume as it happens more often there. But in NCAA it is not a penalty to play with less players than your allowed. The rule you are quoting is there to prevent teams doing it on purpose and then floating a guy at the blueline. However it is the teams responsibility to have the proper number of players on the ice, the officials responsibility is to make sure they don't have more than the allowed number on the ice. A team cannot be penalized for an officials error, can't stress that enough. These situations being discussed would all be considered officials errors. A warning would be issued after the situation occurs but the penalty that would be called in this situation would be a delay of game if the problem persists.