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Nick Papagiorgio
12-19-2011, 07:15 AM
Show me the transcripts that verify

Why don't you ask for their medical records while you're at it. Lay off the egg nog.

WIrinkrat
12-19-2011, 08:23 AM
Why make a stupid request like that? I know Cam Reid failed a required Math course in his senior year and then didnt complete the course in the summer. This all transpired the year before he was supposed to come. White was at a prep school--assuming his grades probably were respectable. But why make a request to see transcripts which obviously no one on this message board can produce. You think it is that unrealistic that a kids grades slip in his senior year and he gets denied admission? Why is that hard to believe? It happens all the time to kids across the country. The staff does not commit kids that they know cant get in. Surely they look at their grades and feel confident that they will get in when they commit to them. There is nothing Dick Umile or Scott Borek can do when a kid screws off in school the year before he is supposed to come in an admissions denies him.

Why? Because you continue to make statements about Vecchione, Reid, White, etc that you claim are fact without any kind of factual support.

Dan
12-19-2011, 09:16 AM
I am also beginning to think that Hokydad is Mr. Vecchione...

And who are you? Mrs. Scott Borek? Why else would you continue to avoid most of the points made in this thread, while the rest seemingly fly right over your head! You call my post comical, yet you continue to side-step the actual debate and cling to some 'insider' knowledge that you feel should eliminate the need to ask questions about an issue that is presenting itself at UNH again and again and again and again...


You recruit for a D1 sport? which sport might I ask? You take chances on players--thats the game

I certainly don't need to explain myself to you - but since you asked so nicely I coach DI Softball and YES, DI softball commitments are often just freshmen in HS. Its a major problem within DI Softball. A problem most coaches would like to address, while at the same time they can't help but commit kids earlier and earlier each year. Sound familiar?

Do yourself some research and you'll see how many 2014 and 2015 recruits have already made college commitments to softball programs. At a mid-major program we Already have two 2014 commitments, with two additional offers extended. We have a camp full of 2015 recruits in January. I have a pretty good idea of how early recruiting works.

Its a lot more complicated than just taking chances - whether you want to admit it or not. The first step is to excercise dilligence in learning about your prospect and their family with a specific regard to their academic ability. You can dismiss WIrinkrat's comments all you want, but he's dead on. You need to follow up with the kids. You follow up with the parents. You ensure that they are on track to meet your academic standards and you ensure that they understand the necessary academic requirements of the NCAA and your institution. Its not difficult. You don't simply 'assume' a player's grades are okay because they're attending a prep school.

But your the insider, so address the bigger problem for us. When White and Reid - obviously admirable students their entire careers, save for late SR year mistakes - were denied admission to UNH why didnt they rectify those mistakes and end up in Durham? Apparently, they missed the boat on White because they didn't check his transcripts but assumed he was a good student since he attended Cushing? So tell me about Reid.

Why didn't he re-take the math class during the summer? He eventually defered a year and matriculated to a DI college - did he end up taking the class afterall? Why didn't he defer and come to UNH a year later? Unfortunately, I'm left to assume that either he had bigger academic issues than you claim, he felt like he wasn't getting what he signed up for (ie. Vecchione, etc.) OR UNH said thanks but no thanks, we'd rather have Austin Block this year than Cam Reid next year. I'm sure you can spin it, but I have a hard time getting behind either decision/process.


You bring up McCloskey's last group of forwards---No NHL players in that group. 2 NHL contracts (Hemingway/Haydar) vs. 3 just last season in Desimone, Sislo, and Thompson. Sorkin WILL sign an NHL deal before he leaves, and I believe Downing has a legit shot...Maybe even Moses...

More spin - an excellent job of missing the point completely. If I cared only about NHL contracts I'd pay more attention to the Bruins. I follow UNH hockey and I'm most concerned with how UNH hockey recruits play when they represent UNH hockey.

McCloskey's last group of forwards put up the following career numbers at UNH - Haydar (219 points), Collins (173), Hemingway (147), Gare (142), Callander (130), Abbot (94), Aikins (93), Martz (82), Prudden (73). McCloskey was also the lead recruiter of at least the next few classes that included Micflikier (150), B. Hemingway (134), Winnik (95 in 3 seasons). Not to mention all the top players that came before McCloskey's last season - Mowers, Niklaus, Bekar, Krog, Saviano, etc, etc, etc.

Borek's has obviously had some success with Butler, Thompson, Sislo, etc (all of whom barely snuck past 100 points). I love Downing, Thrush and Sorkin but they have a lot to prove to be mentioned with the players above (your NHL projections not withstanding...). Regardless, the argument is depth and it hasn't been there and certainly isnt there now. If you refuse to awknowledge it thats your decision - but your burying your head in the sand. Imagine what type of career JVR could have had if he played with some of the talent of the McCloskey years instead of having to carry a team who's best players needed 2-3 years in college to truly break out...


so I dont see it being that big of a talent drop off. Lanny Gare was an ECHL player, same for the majority of those guys. If they were so "talented" they would have signed pro deals.

It clearly was a drop-off in college 'talent'. College hockey and the NHL are different games and require different skill sets. Plenty of great NCAA players don't succeed in the pro-ranks, while many other's have decent NCAA careers and play in the NHL for quite a while. Whats your point? Do the NHL careers of Jamie Fristch and Matt Campanale make them elite talent? Chris Murray has reached the AHL, while Brian Yandle never made it out of the ECHL. Brad Flaishans has stopped playing all together? So I suppose you think Murray was the best college player/recruit of the three?

Again, you avoided the conversation by mentioning the three best forwards on last year's team and you act like you've scored a major victory because there were 3 NHL contracts to 2. Take a look at the depth of those forward groups and let me know how many of Block, Silengo, McCarey, Camper, Borisenok, Willows, Pavelski (thats 7 forwards on this team - who play major roles and would struggle to make previous clubs) will match Lanny Gare's UNH or ECHL career? Player's like Speelman, Goumas who play top-6 roles on this UNH team will be lucky to match Gare's pro career. They'll never have the UNH impact that he did - which is most important.

Sorkin may sign an NHL contract - but Moses won't. Neither will have the UNH careers that Gare and his teammates had and their professional future is simply speculation at this point with you aiming for the absolute ceilings of their ability.


Also--you bring up Borek on projecting Vecchione---I got news for you---Borek did not recruit him. But you knew that?

So Borek, the recruiting coordinator, and Umile, the head coach, had nothing to do with Vecchione's recruitment or projection? They weren't at all involved in the decision/promise that he'd play one year of juniors and matriculate to UNH? I guess Lasonde leaving was a blessing in disguise and they were able to rid themselves of a kid they never believed in?


I also never said that UNH doesnt have a nice rink...It is a great place to play. But it is not better than BU anymore. In the late 90's, early 2000's, UNH stole recruits from BU because they played in a crap rink and we had a good one.

This is just an excuse for why UNH can't compete. Clearly you feel close enough to the coaching staff to defend them with bias - I hope youre not hearing this line of thought directly from them. However, the point that has been made in this thread (which you've ignored or missed) is that current recruits are not making their way to UNH.

Is the rink responsible for all of the decommitments? Did LaLeggia initially commit to the Whitt and then realize it's not as nice as Magness? Did Reid fail his math class because he didn't like the locker rooms at UNH and would rather play at the NHC? Do we need to add facilities to the lists of concerns as to why Kelleher et. all may not show up? How does Michigan recruit to their dump of an arena? How did Michigan State win a national championship with pathetic hockey facilities?


I truly believe if BU was in Walter Brown then Wesley Myron would have came to UNH. Alot of good UNH players in Mccloskeys time here chose UNH over BU--that probably wouldnt happen now...with our without him...facilities sell...

You sell what you need to sell. You sell the kid on what they're looking for. UNH's facilities for hockey are a terrific sell, but if you disagree why not sell Myron on all the NHL contracts that are being signed in Durham right now?

Apparently, you think the UNH staff is recruiting to the best of their ability and that their inability to maintain commitments is just the nature of the game today. Well, you're the only one. Watcher's point about UNH's practice of bringing in aged out, low-ceiling prospects is a terrific one. Recently, they have defered to older role players who stick on the 3rd and 4th lines for years without making an impact. I think that's a problem when you look at the history they've had with younger players adjusting as freshman and exploding as sophomores. You don't? Why wouldn't Vecchione be a perfect candidate for that role?

Instead UNH is bringing in Jamie Hill who has never averaged more than 'half a point per game' in the USHL despite the fact that he is playing his third season in the league. They're bringing in Kyle Smith, who was cut from the USHL and forced to return to the EJHL. They're bringing in Colin McDonald who played in the Empire League a year ago. Please tell me what type of impact you think they can make as freshman that the more skilled Vecchione would not?

Nick Sorkin never scored much in the USHL - and before that played AAA in the DC area. He entered UNH at the same age Vecchione would have entered next fall. Had a mediocre year of development as a FR and now is tied for the team lead in scoring and you have him playing in the NHL already. Seems like bringing him in and letting him develop on campus was a pretty nice plan!

Hokydad
12-19-2011, 09:31 AM
Why? Because you continue to make statements about Vecchione, Reid, White, etc that you claim are fact without any kind of factual support.

Exactly. Mostly fringe bs info. There is such a disconnect between the two top coaches at UNH it is mind boggling.

For example says they are a brutal team, maybe they were but that is changing. Head coach fired, new more offensive guy has taken over and team has won 3 of last 4 since he took over. All 3 of the wins vs teams ahead of them in their division. Going forward the trap is gone and a hard 2 man forecheck will be the plan.

Lets just sit back and watch and see what the results are on the ice.

dover4345
12-19-2011, 02:08 PM
And who are you? Mrs. Scott Borek? Why else would you continue to avoid most of the points made in this thread, while the rest seemingly fly right over your head! You call my post comical, yet you continue to side-step the actual debate and cling to some 'insider' knowledge that you feel should eliminate the need to ask questions about an issue that is presenting itself at UNH again and again and again and again...



I certainly don't need to explain myself to you - but since you asked so nicely I coach DI Softball and YES, DI softball commitments are often just freshmen in HS. Its a major problem within DI Softball. A problem most coaches would like to address, while at the same time they can't help but commit kids earlier and earlier each year. Sound familiar?

Do yourself some research and you'll see how many 2014 and 2015 recruits have already made college commitments to softball programs. At a mid-major program we Already have two 2014 commitments, with two additional offers extended. We have a camp full of 2015 recruits in January. I have a pretty good idea of how early recruiting works.

Its a lot more complicated than just taking chances - whether you want to admit it or not. The first step is to excercise dilligence in learning about your prospect and their family with a specific regard to their academic ability. You can dismiss WIrinkrat's comments all you want, but he's dead on. You need to follow up with the kids. You follow up with the parents. You ensure that they are on track to meet your academic standards and you ensure that they understand the necessary academic requirements of the NCAA and your institution. Its not difficult. You don't simply 'assume' a player's grades are okay because they're attending a prep school.

But your the insider, so address the bigger problem for us. When White and Reid - obviously admirable students their entire careers, save for late SR year mistakes - were denied admission to UNH why didnt they rectify those mistakes and end up in Durham? Apparently, they missed the boat on White because they didn't check his transcripts but assumed he was a good student since he attended Cushing? So tell me about Reid.

Why didn't he re-take the math class during the summer? He eventually defered a year and matriculated to a DI college - did he end up taking the class afterall? Why didn't he defer and come to UNH a year later? Unfortunately, I'm left to assume that either he had bigger academic issues than you claim, he felt like he wasn't getting what he signed up for (ie. Vecchione, etc.) OR UNH said thanks but no thanks, we'd rather have Austin Block this year than Cam Reid next year. I'm sure you can spin it, but I have a hard time getting behind either decision/process.



More spin - an excellent job of missing the point completely. If I cared only about NHL contracts I'd pay more attention to the Bruins. I follow UNH hockey and I'm most concerned with how UNH hockey recruits play when they represent UNH hockey.

McCloskey's last group of forwards put up the following career numbers at UNH - Haydar (219 points), Collins (173), Hemingway (147), Gare (142), Callander (130), Abbot (94), Aikins (93), Martz (82), Prudden (73). McCloskey was also the lead recruiter of at least the next few classes that included Micflikier (150), B. Hemingway (134), Winnik (95 in 3 seasons). Not to mention all the top players that came before McCloskey's last season - Mowers, Niklaus, Bekar, Krog, Saviano, etc, etc, etc.

Borek's has obviously had some success with Butler, Thompson, Sislo, etc (all of whom barely snuck past 100 points). I love Downing, Thrush and Sorkin but they have a lot to prove to be mentioned with the players above (your NHL projections not withstanding...). Regardless, the argument is depth and it hasn't been there and certainly isnt there now. If you refuse to awknowledge it thats your decision - but your burying your head in the sand. Imagine what type of career JVR could have had if he played with some of the talent of the McCloskey years instead of having to carry a team who's best players needed 2-3 years in college to truly break out...



It clearly was a drop-off in college 'talent'. College hockey and the NHL are different games and require different skill sets. Plenty of great NCAA players don't succeed in the pro-ranks, while many other's have decent NCAA careers and play in the NHL for quite a while. Whats your point? Do the NHL careers of Jamie Fristch and Matt Campanale make them elite talent? Chris Murray has reached the AHL, while Brian Yandle never made it out of the ECHL. Brad Flaishans has stopped playing all together? So I suppose you think Murray was the best college player/recruit of the three?

Again, you avoided the conversation by mentioning the three best forwards on last year's team and you act like you've scored a major victory because there were 3 NHL contracts to 2. Take a look at the depth of those forward groups and let me know how many of Block, Silengo, McCarey, Camper, Borisenok, Willows, Pavelski (thats 7 forwards on this team - who play major roles and would struggle to make previous clubs) will match Lanny Gare's UNH or ECHL career? Player's like Speelman, Goumas who play top-6 roles on this UNH team will be lucky to match Gare's pro career. They'll never have the UNH impact that he did - which is most important.

Sorkin may sign an NHL contract - but Moses won't. Neither will have the UNH careers that Gare and his teammates had and their professional future is simply speculation at this point with you aiming for the absolute ceilings of their ability.



So Borek, the recruiting coordinator, and Umile, the head coach, had nothing to do with Vecchione's recruitment or projection? They weren't at all involved in the decision/promise that he'd play one year of juniors and matriculate to UNH? I guess Lasonde leaving was a blessing in disguise and they were able to rid themselves of a kid they never believed in?



Apparently, you think the UNH staff is recruiting to the best of their ability and that their inability to maintain commitments is just the nature of the game today. Well, you're the only one. Watcher's point about UNH's practice of bringing in aged out, low-ceiling prospects is a terrific one. Recently, they have defered to older role players who stick on the 3rd and 4th lines for years without making an impact. I think that's a problem when you look at the history they've had with younger players adjusting as freshman and exploding as sophomores. You don't? Why wouldn't Vecchione be a perfect candidate for that role?

Instead UNH is bringing in Jamie Hill who has never averaged more than 'half a point per game' in the USHL despite the fact that he is playing his third season in the league. They're bringing in Kyle Smith, who was cut from the USHL and forced to return to the EJHL. They're bringing in Colin McDonald who played in the Empire League a year ago. Please tell me what type of impact you think they can make as freshman that the more skilled Vecchione would not?

Nick Sorkin never scored much in the USHL - and before that played AAA in the DC area. He entered UNH at the same age Vecchione would have entered next fall. Had a mediocre year of development as a FR and now is tied for the team lead in scoring and you have him playing in the NHL already. Seems like bringing him in and letting him develop on campus was a pretty nice plan!

This is truly too long to respond to. I will read it again tonight and if it bothers me enough I will write my novel response. One thing I will quickly point out is that Winnik/Micflikier were not recruited by BM. Also, when you are in the rinks committing to 9th/10th graders you have to project them, which often lead to seeing who could be pro players. In todays recruiting landscape UNH does not have a full ride to give out to 20 year old Lanny Gare and he ends up at Bemiji State. Do you keep a full ride around in case a 20 year old pops? What if it never happens? Play the year with 17 scholorship guys instead of 18 like everyone else? There is alot of things you are not thinking about--recruiting has changed alot--and recruiting at UNH has changed even more. We face more battles than we did 10 years ago---harder admissions, declining facilities combined with improving facilities from our rivals--that shrinks the pool of players...How can you simply ignore that? How can say you say it shouldnt matter that BU built a kingdom on Commonwealth ave? My point is that the UNH staff has done a great job taking into account all the variables. 1 more win in the last 3 years and they are in the FF, just like all those "supierior" teams in the late 90's...The talent is there (maybe not this season), they are in the mix every year. I just can not agrue to fire a coach after he has recruited enough talent to be in the NCAA tournament EVERY year since he has been here. Do you see the recruits they have in the mix? Eiserman, Kelleher, Master, Poturalski, Pesce--have you seen those guys? How can you say hes doing a bad job with guys like that in the pipeline? And to your comments on Hill, Smith, and Macdonald---Macdonald IS a better player than MV, no doubt...and all 3 of them are producing more than MV right now and all three are recieving less scholorship money than MV...

dover4345
12-19-2011, 02:39 PM
Oh, and Dan...You brought up the 01-02 UNH team and said UNH no longer has teams of that depth and talent--then you compared them to this years team (the worst in years) as your example... Here is my challenge for you...Find a more talented team with more depth than the 07/08 roster--totally recruited by Scott Borek--and please give evidence--here is mine...

Matt Fornataro (All American)
Mike Radja (All American)
JVR (NHL player/best forward in program history)
Mike Sislo (NHL contract, 100+ points)
Paul Thompson (HE POY, All American, Hobey finalist)
Phil Desimone (100+ points, NHL contract)
Bobby Bulter (All American/HE POY/Hobey Finalist/100+ points/NHL player)
Kevin Regan (All American/HE POY/NHL Contract)
Brian Foster (All American)
Brad Flaishans (All American)
Jamie Fritsche (played in NHL)
Matt Campanale (played in NHL)

Then throw in guys like Pete Leblanc, Jerry Pollestrone, Greg Collins, Kevin Kapstad, Joe Charlebois--all good college players... please find a team with more talent than that one--via all americans/hobey/nhl contracts... It is the asst. coaches job to bring in the talent--and that team had more talent than most UNH teams in the history of the program.

Hokydad
12-19-2011, 02:48 PM
Macdonald IS a better player than MV, no doubt...and all 3 of them are producing more than MV right now and all three are recieving less scholorship money than MV...[/QUOTE]

There you go again with your foolish talk and fringe info and half truths. I would be producing more if I was out injured or hurt most of the year. Also, please do not compare 92 birthyear kids playing in the EJ, a borderline tier 6 junior league that would lose by 5+ goals minimum evry game vs the bottom half USHL teams.

Smith and Macdonald both tried to hook up in USHL, one was cut, other made himself available and didnt get drafted in over 15 rounds. Do you realize how tough the USHL is vs EJ? Alex Gacek for example is in 3rd year in USHL, with avg at best success. Lit up the EJ and had 61 points as a 15 year old before he went to USHL and is better than Smith and Macdonald by a very good margin. Billy Fitzgerald was NE Prep school dman of the year, went to USHL, dressed les than half of the games and than came back and did very well with Monarchs. EJ is littered with studs in their league who couldnt dress in USHL and or got cut. very few Mass kids do well out there. To pretend that MV with 9 points, which equates to 35+ points if he played full season is not doing well is talk from someone who is ignorant about the USHL.

Go to USHL stats page and you will see player after player, committed to the Denver, MN, ND types who played 2/3 years in USHL, almost to a player, first year solid, 15-20+ points, 2nd year better, 3rd year very, very good. Same exact thing MV would do.

Macdonald is not a better player and having 32 pts in 29 games as a 19+ year old in a yier 5 or 6 type league does not impress me. I might also point out he had over 10% of his production this past weekend in getting 4 meaningless points in a 11-0 and 8-0 wins. That is the EJ, crap teams outside the top 3-5.
Has had 14 games with 0 points and a 7 game stretch with 0. If that was MV in a league 4 times tougher top to bottom, you would be telling us what a failure he was.

Eiserman? Has 2 goals in 9 games in the has been prep league, one of the goals was an empty netter vs div 2 Groton.... Lighting it up there

irishfan85
12-19-2011, 02:51 PM
Ok Dover, UNH made the Frozen Four in 98, 99, 02 and 03...I could care less about an individual's talent. The team doesn't have what's been needed to get to the FF lately. McCloskey was better than Borek.

Dan
12-19-2011, 03:12 PM
Look dover, I don't want to see anyone fired. I understand that the recruiting landscape has changed - I think thats my exact point. I see it all the time in softball, the older staffs lament the changes in the recruiting landscape and can't adjust to the prospects and 'playing fields' of today. The staff needs to adjust to the current landscape and figure out a way to land top kids and retain them. If they cannot, than the unfortunate reality is the program will continue to struggle and changes will come one way or another.

The staff has recruited a handful of top players, but they used to gather them in bunches. We can talk about how close the past three UNH teams were to the FF, but lets be realistic those teams were not as good as the 2001-02 group that was 30-7-3. They were not as good as the team the following year that made it to the National Championship game. They just weren't.

The frustration is not that UNH has not landed strong recruits - but that they aren't getting them on campus. Its happened again and again - we'll have to disagree about how common a problem this is at other schools. Its one thing to lose a Bourque to major juniors - its another to see UNH recruit after UNH recruit matriculate at other schools for reasons within UNH's control. I'm sorry, I can't help but wonder if this reflects a lack of attention to detail or a lack of a clear plan/process for recruiting classes.

I love the players you mentioned in upcoming classes. I'll give the coaching staff tremendous credit when they arrive on campus. Its hard to get excited about them now, as far away as they are and as many decommits as we've seen recently. And YES, i'd rather see them play with 17 scholarships than 18 if it means wasting money on kids who shouldn't be getting scholarship money. Take a chance on younger talent or roll it over, take your medicine and crush the next class...

I'll just refer to BM and SB as entire coaching staffs now. We both know recruiting is a staff-wide job and approach anyway. Simply put, my opinion is that as this staff has changed/aged they've lost some of their recruiting touch. Every school faces obstacles and has its recruiting weaknesses - work hard, be enthusiastic and passionate about what your selling and go get the best. No excuses. I hope these future classes are signs of things changing...

CarlS
12-19-2011, 03:15 PM
What we need is Watcher's updated listing of Borek's recruits over the years at UNH and LSSU and a comparison to McCloskey's recruits while with the UNH men's program. Of course there are variables, but it would be a starting place.

WildShawn
12-19-2011, 03:18 PM
Oh, and Dan...You brought up the 01-02 UNH team and said UNH no longer has teams of that depth and talent--then you compared them to this years team (the worst in years) as your example... Here is my challenge for you...Find a more talented team with more depth than the 07/08 roster--totally recruited by Scott Borek--and please give evidence--here is mine...

Matt Fornataro (All American)
Mike Radja (All American)
JVR (NHL player/best forward in program history)
Mike Sislo (NHL contract, 100+ points)
Paul Thompson (HE POY, All American, Hobey finalist)
Phil Desimone (100+ points, NHL contract)
Bobby Bulter (All American/HE POY/Hobey Finalist/100+ points/NHL player)
Kevin Regan (All American/HE POY/NHL Contract)
Brian Foster (All American)
Brad Flaishans (All American)
Jamie Fritsche (played in NHL)
Matt Campanale (played in NHL)

Then throw in guys like Pete Leblanc, Jerry Pollestrone, Greg Collins, Kevin Kapstad, Joe Charlebois--all good college players... please find a team with more talent than that one--via all americans/hobey/nhl contracts... It is the asst. coaches job to bring in the talent--and that team had more talent than most UNH teams in the history of the program.

That was a very talented team that, as most UNH teams do, came up short as the favorite in the NCAA's. The 2001-2002 team, top-to-bottom, was a much more talented team, especially at the top end, than the 2007-2008 amongst a much more deep pool of talent nationally. And while Fritsch and Camp played a game in the NHL, they are not NHL caliber players. Not to take anything away from them, at all, they were both strange circumstances that landed them a cup of coffee and no one can take that from them, but let's be serious.

And you mention how the last 3 seasons they were one win away from the Frozen Four. The fact is, they have failed to advance to the Frozen Four while the favorites in two of those regional finals, unlike in 98, 99, 02 and 03 where they got the job done. And as I mentioned above, the talent nationwide is not where it was a decade ago when UNH was amongst the top handful of programs in the nation for that stretch of 6 years.

Dan
12-19-2011, 03:19 PM
Oh, and Dan...You brought up the 01-02 UNH team and said UNH no longer has teams of that depth and talent--then you compared them to this years team (the worst in years) as your example... Here is my challenge for you...Find a more talented team with more depth than the 07/08 roster--totally recruited by Scott Borek--and please give evidence--here is mine...

Well, I do have plenty of actual work to do today but...youre on...

Hokydad
12-19-2011, 03:26 PM
What we need is Watcher's updated listing of Borek's recruits over the years at UNH and LSSU and a comparison to McCloskey's recruits while with the UNH men's program. Of course there are variables, but it would be a starting place.

Wasnt there issues at LSSU as well on the recruiting side? I know about the recent NCAA problem but I remember a situation/situations there where there was a problem as well

dover4345
12-19-2011, 04:23 PM
That was a very talented team that, as most UNH teams do, came up short as the favorite in the NCAA's. The 2001-2002 team, top-to-bottom, was a much more talented team, especially at the top end, than the 2007-2008 amongst a much more deep pool of talent nationally. And while Fritsch and Camp played a game in the NHL, they are not NHL caliber players. Not to take anything away from them, at all, they were both strange circumstances that landed them a cup of coffee and no one can take that from them, but let's be serious.

And you mention how the last 3 seasons they were one win away from the Frozen Four. The fact is, they have failed to advance to the Frozen Four while the favorites in two of those regional finals, unlike in 98, 99, 02 and 03 where they got the job done. And as I mentioned above, the talent nationwide is not where it was a decade ago when UNH was amongst the top handful of programs in the nation for that stretch of 6 years.

The discussion is not what "team" is better--it is which team had more talent...the assistants job is to bring in talent, not mold the team...Yes, those teams got further--but it doesnt mean they had more talent... In 02-03 the fourth line in the final game was Horst (a dman), Barker (Dman) and Tyler Scott (often scratched the next season)--The 4th line in 07/08 was Thompson-Leblanc-Desimone...Are we really going to debate which team had deeper talent? Dont just say "teams in those times were better." Show me---Talent is reviewed by accolades--all americans, Hobey, NHL contracts--etc. Good teams win team hardware---Talented teams win individual awards---the best teams win both...Show me a more talented team in McCloskeys time---maybe you can argue 1, maybe two...but you certainly can not say the guy doesnt bring in talent...

WildShawn
12-19-2011, 04:35 PM
The discussion is not what "team" is better--it is which team had more talent...the assistants job is to bring in talent, not mold the team...Yes, those teams got further--but it doesnt mean they had more talent... In 02-03 the fourth line in the final game was Horst (a dman), Barker (Dman) and Tyler Scott (often scratched the next season)--The 4th line in 07/08 was Thompson-Leblanc-Desimone...Are we really going to debate which team had deeper talent? Dont just say "teams in those times were better." Show me---Talent is reviewed by accolades--all americans, Hobey, NHL contracts--etc. Good teams win team hardware---Talented teams win individual awards---the best teams win both...Show me a more talented team in McCloskeys time---maybe you can argue 1, maybe two...but you certainly can not say the guy doesnt bring in talent...

Again, I'll say it, you bring up the accolades, and I will say the talent pool nationally is much more diluted now than it was 10 years ago. No one was talking about 2002-2003, but specifically 2001-2002 (convenient change there). That 2001-2002 team was, top to bottom, the most talented team we've seen this generation. You say talent is reviewed by accolades, and I say the competition is diluted compared to then. The best players aren't going to college nearly as much as they were a decade ago. The same players that won those awards wouldn't have won them a decade ago. No offense to Brian Yandle, but he was an All-American. I say, if you match the 2001-2002 team against the 2007-2008 team, the former wins comfortably. I'd be surprised if you found someone else here that agrees that the 07-08 team was more talented than the 01-02 team. Anyone?

Dan
12-19-2011, 05:00 PM
Well, I do have plenty of actual work to do today but...youre on...

I'm not going to bother looking up NHL accolades. College recruiters recruit talent, but also must fill the roles of the college program. Often times that talent leads to accolades, but draft status and pro-careers truly have no bearing on the on ice success of UNH hockey. Your inclusion of Campanale and Fritsch, who would struggle to crack the top-5 defenseman on the 2001-02 team is laughable based on emergency one game NHL careers.

If anything, the lack of NHL draft picks coming through UNH and the apparent abundance of NHL contracts implies that UNH is not recruiting but developing. Imagine if they still started with some of the best ingredients???

Here is the 2001-02 team's top-six forwards (Note - I did not include 2nd round draft pick Ed Caron, a big time recruit with NHL accolades to his pre-college credit):

Darren Haydar (219 career pts � 3rd career scoring / 76 points in 01-02 / Hobey Hat Trick � should have won / 2nd in career goals � 102 / 3rd in career assists -117 / 31 goals as a FR / HE Rookie of the Year / All-American)
Sean Collins (173 pts � 12th career scoring / never scored less than 16 goals in a season / HE Rookie of the Year / All-American)
Colin Hemingway (148 pts � 24th career scoring / 66 points and 33 goals in 01-02 / Two-Time All-American)

Lanny Gare (142 pts � 29th career scoring / All-American)
Preston Callander (130 pts / HE Best defensive forward)
Steve Saviano (117 pts / All-American / Hobey Finalist)

The 'second-tier' offensive talent on this team included Jim Abbott (94 career pts), Justin Aikins (93 pts), Nathan Martz (82 pts), Josh Prudden (73 pts), David Busch (70 pts), Patrick Foley (47 pts / 2-Time Captain) -- All good college players. Thats six more forwards - compare that group of 12 to the current group...

Defensively the team boasted a top-5 of:

Garrett Stafford (81 pts / Easily hits 100 pts and is an All-American without missing half of his senior season)
Tyson Teplitsky (62 pts / Four-Year Regular)
Mick Mounsey (44 pts / Four-Year Regular)
Kevin Truelson (40 pts / Four-Year Regular)
Mike Lubesnick (34 pts / Four-Year Regular)

In net, Mike Ayers and Matt Carney split time during the 2001-02 season. Ayers was clearly the better goalie:

Mike Ayers (2.49 GAA / .914 SPCT / All-American)


Both great teams. I'll still take the 2001-02 team. The Goaltender's are a wash - but the defenseman on the 2001-02 team are much better and a much deeper group. The 2001-02 top-six forward group gets the edge in college production and four-year impact (they were also simply more dynamic w/ a much bigger impact on the year in question). The depth of the forwards is hard to argue - though I'm sure you'll think of something.

Unfortunately (and relevant to the argument in this thread) - the problem is that the next couple recruiting classes following the 2001-02 season added players like Yandle, Pietrasiak, Mickflikier, Winnik and B. Hemingway. You don't want to give BM credit for these players - but every one committed to UNH before the date he left for the women's program and well before SB joined the program.

Meanwhile, the 2007-08 season was followed by recruiting classes that featured Silengo, Pavelski, McCarey, Block, Borisenok, Chevrier, Randall. Hence the discussion.

Dan
12-19-2011, 05:15 PM
I'd also prefer a lot of the teams from the mid-to-late '90s but I'm not showing my work.

The forwards on the '96-'97 team were some kind of group with Krog, Mowers, Bekar, Niklaus, Nolan, Bogey. The team had Fillipowicz, Murray and O'Brian on the blue line. Matile in net.

None of the late '90's teams were as deep as either team previously mentioned - but none of the recent teams have had the depth of top-end talent (all performing during the same season's) as the late '90's teams or the 2001-02 team.

Those team's also had great role players. Penalty killers like Onufrechuk. Defensive forwards like Sadowski. You could make the argument that those teams were better because they had strong role players, rather than future top-line forwards who weren't ready for a lot of ice time. Remember when UNH used to be able to play a strong defensive fourth line against any team/line in the country?


Dover said, "but you certainly can not say the guy doesnt bring in talent..."

That's not really the issue. Interesting debate, but we've drifted off topic - the issue is that recently that talent has not arrived on campus. Borek's work with the 2007-08 team doesn't remove him from sharing the blame over recent decommits/admissions issues with White, Reid, Bourque, LaLeggia and Vecchione. These non-arrivals and their low-ceiling (sometimes low-floor) replacements is what everyone has an issue with. Combine that issue with a poor 2012 group of forwards and here we are...

WildShawn
12-19-2011, 05:20 PM
I'd also prefer a lot of the teams from the mid-to-late '90s but I'm not showing my work.

The forwards on the '96-'97 team were some kind of group with Krog, Mowers, Bekar, Niklaus, Nolan, Bogey. The team had Fillipowicz, Murray and O'Brian on the blue line. Matile in net.

None of the late '90's teams were as deep as either team previously mentioned - but none of the recent teams have had the depth of top-end talent (all performing during the same season's) as the late '90's teams or the 2001-02 team.

The 2007-08 team has a lot of great Wildcats - but were far from an offensive juggernaut and had a lot of young players who didn't make much of an immediate impact.

I think, in 97-98, Krog, Mowers, Nolan and Bekar all had over 50 points, at least 2 of them over 60. UNH could lose a player like Nickulas or Bekar a year early and still improve on the year before.. It's not even close today.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0004961998.html

hockey east fan
12-19-2011, 06:18 PM
Not gonna get into this argument..but facts are facts....Unh just lost another top end recruit.....if the over recruiting was the cause..then thats a shame...

i'zonprize
12-19-2011, 08:34 PM
I'm not going to bother looking up NHL accolades. College recruiters recruit talent, but also must fill the roles of the college program. Often times that talent leads to accolades, but draft status and pro-careers truly have no bearing on the on ice success of UNH hockey. Your inclusion of Campanale and Fritsch, who would struggle to crack the top-5 defenseman on the 2001-02 team is laughable based on emergency one game NHL careers.

If anything, the lack of NHL draft picks coming through UNH and the apparent abundance of NHL contracts implies that UNH is not recruiting but developing. Imagine if they still started with some of the best ingredients???

Here is the 2001-02 team's top-six forwards (Note - I did not include 2nd round draft pick Ed Caron, a big time recruit with NHL accolades to his pre-college credit):

Darren Haydar (219 career pts � 3rd career scoring / 76 points in 01-02 / Hobey Hat Trick � should have won / 2nd in career goals � 102 / 3rd in career assists -117 / 31 goals as a FR / HE Rookie of the Year / All-American)
Sean Collins (173 pts � 12th career scoring / never scored less than 16 goals in a season / HE Rookie of the Year / All-American)
Colin Hemingway (148 pts � 24th career scoring / 66 points and 33 goals in 01-02 / Two-Time All-American)

Lanny Gare (142 pts � 29th career scoring / All-American)
Preston Callander (130 pts / HE Best defensive forward)
Steve Saviano (117 pts / All-American / Hobey Finalist)

The 'second-tier' offensive talent on this team included Jim Abbott (94 career pts), Justin Aikins (93 pts), Nathan Martz (82 pts), Josh Prudden (73 pts), David Busch (70 pts), Patrick Foley (47 pts / 2-Time Captain) -- All good college players. Thats six more forwards - compare that group of 12 to the current group...

Defensively the team boasted a top-5 of:

Garrett Stafford (81 pts / Easily hits 100 pts and is an All-American without missing half of his senior season)
Tyson Teplitsky (62 pts / Four-Year Regular)
Mick Mounsey (44 pts / Four-Year Regular)
Kevin Truelson (40 pts / Four-Year Regular)
Mike Lubesnick (34 pts / Four-Year Regular)

In net, Mike Ayers and Matt Carney split time during the 2001-02 season. Ayers was clearly the better goalie:

Mike Ayers (2.49 GAA / .914 SPCT / All-American)

...

Dan- great teams and valid points- you simply don't see players racking up 125/150+ point careers often- UNH found a way to get several of them- and provide everyone some fantastic hockey- ofcourse I think Hockey East wasn't as deep either, but that's my own opinion.

But here is the question -would all those players in that era, including the one's you mentioned and the Krog's, Mowers', Nicholas', Nolan', Bogi's, Sadowski's, Souza, Bekar, Hall, O'Brien, Stafford(acedmically ineligible for the first part of his Sr. season, IIRC) Matile and crew as well as ALL that other talent on those teams get into UNH today?