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Carmine Scarpaglia
12-17-2011, 10:10 PM
Greg Ambrosse,

You are losing alot of credibility with me.

What took you so long?

Hokydad
12-17-2011, 10:15 PM
Greg Ambrosse,

You are losing alot of credibility with me. For someone who pretends to have knowledge of the UNH program your comments are simply clueless. You state that the UNH recruits are not up to snuff because of Scott Borek. Do you not pay attention to what is happening in admissions? Insert Cam Reid, Matt White and Joey Laleggia into UNH’s lineup and we are in a much better place. Those players are playing at other schools and all doing quite well. Admissions boned the program by not letting them in, and in order to fill roster spots the coaching staff had to scramble and pick up the scraps. Borek did his job and went out and committed 3 high end guys---and they were not let in. This is the first year we are really seeing the effect of that. You suggest he be fired because of admissions? Since Borek has been at UNH they have not missed the NCAA tournament once---yet you state how there is a steep decline in talent? Do you not take into consideration a declining facility and BU’s new rink that UNH now competes with—or loses recruits to?
Finally---on Vecchione. Greg, your not in the rinks, therefore you should not comment on when recruits are ready to come in. Mass Highschool hockey is FAR worse now than it was when Collins and saviano played. Vecchione’s resume is not even close to what collins’s was. The kid is playing on the worst team in the USHL and is 6th among forwards in scoring---and you think he is ready to play on an NCAA team that has standards of being in the top 10 every year? You blame Borek for recruits not being up to par, but then criticize him for a telling a recruit that is clearly not ready to play at UNH that he is not ready? They did not pull his scholarship, they just told him he wasn’t ready. When kids commit early it is a two way street—the school has to honor the scholarship, but the player has to develop. Vecchione has done nothing this year to suggest he is ready to play next season as a scholarship player. END OF STORY. You should not evaluate recruits unless you get out to the USHL to do so.

Wrong+
MV was top player in Tri City camp and has been fighting injuries since Buck Bowl. Plays top 2 lines and pp. Not bad for a 93 in league loaded with 91's and 92's. Has missed several games with shoulder injury and will have a very good 2nd half. 8 + schools in hunt and visits lined up.
Will end up in Hockey east and have a better carear and bigger impact than any of teh other F's coming in.

How was his resume not as good? 4 times to Super 8, Super 8 champs, which sav and collins couldnt do, mvp of CC and broke record for most points ever in a season, as well as Herald, Globe and Mass hs player of the year.

dover4345
12-17-2011, 10:24 PM
Was Vecchione included in NTDP final 40 man camp? NO... Was he drafted into the NHL? NO... He is the 6th leading scorer on the worst team in the USHL. He is a 93 which is not young for that league--there are plenty of 94's and 95's there too. What has he done beside light up a terrible league? Vecchione played with Collier and Fitzgerald, two players that will have far better college careers and two players that would have far more than 9 points in the USHL right now. I would bet alot of money on the fact that he will not be playing NCAA hockey next season---and if he is it will not be at a top school.

WIrinkrat
12-17-2011, 10:24 PM
The guy loves to coach, he loves his players and, my guess is, he sees no reason to retire. Personally, I don't either. The drop off in results this year have come not because he has failed as a coach, they have come because the talent brought in is not up to past standards, plain and simple.

Greg-

I agree with your post, but you know as well as the rest of us that being an effective head coach involves more than just coaching. If the talent being brought in is not up to past standards, then it starts at the top. The head coach is your closer, and for whatever reason, Umile hasn't been able to get the deal done with multiple elite recruits over the last several years. We can blame it on admissions or whatever, but the reality is it is the job of the coaching staff as a whole, and not just the assistants, to identify and recruit quality student athletes that can be successful on the ice and in the classroom.

If they are trying to close on marginal kids, then that falls on the entire coaching staff. The constant pushing back and pulling forward...that ultimately is the decision of the head coach. As a result of these misses we then compound the problem by having to go out late and bring in marginal players that actually end up in the program having to contribute in place of the top targets that have moved on to other options.

These guys commit to schools in many cases several years before they arrive on campus. That should be more than enough time to identify the players that may or may not have issues getting into school or passing through NCAA Clearinghouse. If the need arises to cut bait and go find a solid player that can meet those standards, there should be time to do it. It shouldn't have to happen at the eleventh hour where you then are scraping the bottom of the barrel for someone that can survive D1 hockey.

Lastly and unrelated, I haven't looked at the numbers to know for sure, but over the last couple seasons and moving forward with the kids coming in the next couple years it seems on the surface like there has been a conscious philosophical decision to recruit bigger players and get away from the 5'10-6' tweener players that had been so successful for the program earlier in the decade and through the late 90s.

Felger
12-18-2011, 12:29 AM
Oh and by the way Greg--Krog and Haydar were great UNH players---but the biggest and best recruit to walk through those doors was JVR. He was the biggest get in UNH history. McCloskey had a brand new rink to sell and an admissions department that let anyone in so long as they got through the clearing house. If he was at UNH right now he would be doing no better.

McCloskey is at UNH now, and arguably doing worse....

http://www.uscho.com/2011/11/24/new-hampshire-experiences-the-darkness-before-the-dawn/

brookie
12-18-2011, 12:32 AM
Wrong+
MV was top player in Tri City camp and has been fighting injuries since Buck Bowl. Plays top 2 lines and pp. Not bad for a 93 in league loaded with 91's and 92's. Has missed several games with shoulder injury and will have a very good 2nd half. 8 + schools in hunt and visits lined up.
Will end up in Hockey east and have a better carear and bigger impact than any of teh other F's coming in.

How was his resume not as good? 4 times to Super 8, Super 8 champs, which sav and collins couldnt do, mvp of CC and broke record for most points ever in a season, as well as Herald, Globe and Mass hs player of the year.
en

most points vs who? over 90% of goalies and players in that league never even played club hockey let alone AAA. National Festival's +none

i'zonprize
12-18-2011, 01:28 AM
Greg-
Lastly and unrelated, I haven't looked at the numbers to know for sure, but over the last couple seasons and moving forward with the kids coming in the next couple years it seems on the surface like there has been a conscious philosophical decision to recruit bigger players and get away from the 5'10-6' tweener players that had been so successful for the program earlier in the decade and through the late 90s.

Really? -There is only 1 D man committeed under 6'1'" the next 3 classes. Plenty of forwads fit that mold.
'12
Smith(deferred/pushed back) 5'11"
Hill(defferred/pushed back) 5'9"
M.G. 6'1"-
Correalle(deferred due to injury) 5'10
McDonald - late sign - 6'2" B rated skater- interesting to see how he handles the upgrade in competition only spending 1 yr in the EJHL- He's averaging over 1 pt a game so far and apparently UNH thinks he's more ready than MV to make the jump.

'13
Masters- 5'11 (may be '12 or '13 according to heisenberg)
Poturalski- 5'10" Believe he is a B rated skater as well - Looks like He could be fun to watch, scorers in bunches- although- thought he'd play USHL this yr, maybe after his Sr. yr in Buffalo.
McNicholas -5'10" could be a '14 - in his first yr of USHL now.


'14
Kelleher - 5'7" He is a HUGE potential incoming recruit for UNH - 16yrs old playing in the USHL on the NDPT team- 12pts in 14games against kids how are mostly 18-19-20 yrs olds. (yes, outscoring MV in 3 fewer games- same competition, he also lit up the International competition that he was just in as well)
Eiserman -6'1" - playing at Cushing has all the markings and write ups of a sniper, playing as a true Sophmore now- Unfortunaletely and it could be coincidental, but they don't have the greatest record lately transitioning UNH recuits to campus.

'15-
Kalinowski - 6' - long time from now- apparently gritty hard nosed player w/ scoring touch.


Quick breakdown- but for all the negativity that the MV decommit brings with it- the Committed forwards rank decently and UNH should begin to recover from the loss of the missing trio.(bourque, white, reid)- PESCE and Maller have also gotten a lot of attention as D men- don't know to much about Cleland.

Dan
12-18-2011, 08:43 AM
Greg Ambrosse,

You are losing alot of credibility with me. For someone who pretends to have knowledge of the UNH program your comments are simply clueless. You state that the UNH recruits are not up to snuff because of Scott Borek. Do you not pay attention to what is happening in admissions? Insert Cam Reid, Matt White and Joey Laleggia into UNH�s lineup and we are in a much better place. Those players are playing at other schools and all doing quite well. Admissions boned the program by not letting them in, and in order to fill roster spots the coaching staff had to scramble and pick up the scraps. Borek did his job and went out and committed 3 high end guys---and they were not let in. This is the first year we are really seeing the effect of that. You suggest he be fired because of admissions?


Sorry dover, but it's clear you're opinion is either biased or you're not paying attention. First of all, I have a hard time giving credit to the coaching staff for 'committing' players who don't show up to school. Part of the recruiting process is understanding what your school's admission standards are when you're recruiting. I can't believe that the new admission's director didn't make those standards clear when he was hired (standards, which I personally agree seem far to stringent and have hurt the program ). The coaching staff needs to recruit based on the standards in place. When recruit after recruit is passed over by admissions an adjustment needs to be made and it hasn't been.

I coach and coordinate recruiting for a DI sport at an academic university. I could recruit a full team of elite prospects who don't make the admissions cut - but what good would that do me?


Since Borek has been at UNH they have not missed the NCAA tournament once---yet you state how there is a steep decline in talent?

Are you following the program? The last season Coach McCloskey was here the forward group consisted of Haydar, C. Hemingway, Collins, Gare, Busch, Prudden, Saviano, Abbott, Caron, Calendar, Martz, Aiken. The current group is Moses, Sorkin, Goumas, Downing, Henrion, Block, Thrush, Burke, Borisenok, Speelman, McCarey, Silengo, Camper, Pavelski. What rosters are you looking at?

Last year's roster with Thompson, Sislo and DeSimone is still nowhere near as talented as the 2001-02 team. You may not miss the rosters that had THREE scoring lines and a young, talented line paying its dues defensively - but I do! Moses, Sorkin and Goumas is a THIRD line on those teams.


Do you not take into consideration a declining facility and BU�s new rink that UNH now competes with�or loses recruits to?

I hope the coaching staff doesn't make these excuses. UNH hardly plays in a barn - the Whitt is a great arena and certainly remains as one of the best facilities in college hockey. If UNH coaches can't recruit competitively based on the condition of the Whittemore Center than they should all be fired immediately...


Finally---on Vecchione. They did not pull his scholarship, they just told him he wasn�t ready. When kids commit early it is a two way street�the school has to honor the scholarship, but the player has to develop.

When early recruiting the onus falls on the coaching staff to make projections. Clearly, if this is the UNH coaching staffs opinion on Vecchione's development than they failed miserable with their projections. Vecchione was not even recruited that early - he committed as a HS senior. If UNH commits Vecchione and tells him to play one year in the USHL, I'd imagine they projected him to be ready by that point. If they didn't they should have asked him to play two years immediately. At best this shows poor projection of skills by Borek and the staff.

Saviano came in a year earlier than I imagine they would have liked. He played 16 games and scored 1-1--2. He followed that up with 27, 39 and 49 point seasons. Vecchione would have been talented enough to play next season and the development curve would have been good for him down the road. Consider it playing up in age group - play older kids, better players and you'll develop faster. But I guess they'd rather hold those 4th line spots for the Pavelski's or the world...

Bottom line is you can only fairly judge Borek and the staff for the players that get to campus. I don't care who they 'commit' if they never play for UNH. Learn the landscape, understand the hurdles your university and program present and bust your ***** to get the best players you possibly can. Unfortunately for UNH, somewhere in that process there is a major disconnect.

You can deny it all you want - but when kids are constantly being deferred, denied admissions, decommitting for other schools/major junior/BCHL or being kicked off the team (Dries) are they really doing their job as recruiters?

Finally, I give Borek and the staff ZERO CREDIT for replacing talented recruits that got away with players who lack talent and upside simply to fill roster space. If you don't think a player can compete at this level - you shouldn't bring them in, period. For years, BC would play with limited roster size - I can only assume that was because they felt they'd rather carry a smaller roster than offer scholarship money and roster spots to players they didn't believe in. Maybe less desperate grabs to use money and roster space would have opened up room for Vecchione, etc.

I'll stand by my opinion that modern recruiting has passed this staff by. Changes need to be made - certainly in method and potentially in personnel. It's simply necessary to sustain the recent success of the program. Umile ignored more pressing issues when he hired Torterella over a younger assistant with the energy, passion and ability to relate to young players that is necessary to recruit today.

Personally, I'd love to trade assistant coaching staffs with Brown when they make the trip up to Durham. That would be the same Brown staff who recruited the current leading scorer in the USHL (as a '93). I wonder if he'd be admitted to UNH...

Dan
12-18-2011, 08:53 AM
Quick breakdown- but for all the negativity that the MV decommit brings with it- the Committed forwards rank decently and UNH should begin to recover from the loss of the missing trio.(bourque, white, reid)- PESCE and Maller have also gotten a lot of attention as D men- don't know to much about Cleland.

That is certainly a fair point. I am not a big fan of the 2012 forward class - outside of potentially Correale - but the future classes are very exciting. I love the potential of forwards Masters, Poturalski, McNicholas, Kelleher and Eiserman. I have high hopes for the defensemen Pesce, Maller AND Cleland.

BUT - how many will make it to campus? Those classes look great now. So did the previous classes. Unfortunately, thats the question that has to be asked right now. I'll give Borek and Umile credit for those kids once they show up. I hate to be cynical, but after the last few years what else can you say??

Dan
12-18-2011, 08:58 AM
McCloskey is at UNH now, and arguably doing worse....

http://www.uscho.com/2011/11/24/new-hampshire-experiences-the-darkness-before-the-dawn/

I'm don't look much deeper than the surface when it comes to the women's team. Some coaches are better assistants than head coaches and vice versa. However, kudos to Coach McCloskey for identifying a problem and making a change. My understanding is that the new assistant was brought in because he excelled at recruiting in the modern day. We'll see if it pays off...

i'zonprize
12-18-2011, 09:47 AM
As noted several times, it seems clear that Admissions has taken a tougher track with Hockey anyways over the last few yrs- unfortunately- these kids are offered Scholarships- yrs in advance of changes that may have occured - so there is bound to be a hurdle/curve with any adjustments in policy- UNH does have a fantastic student/athelete graduation rate- however at what cost, $? My guess is if your leading revenue generator, is suddenly not bringing in either the talent it had hoped or the revenue that the School has become accustomed too and may not appear to turn the corner on revenue is a softer economic environment anytime soon, then Mr. Huddleston is going to have to have a big boy conversation with some-

But regarding readiness and player shuffling? That's the coaches call altogether. Fact is they are making decisions around talent and readiness all the time without pulling player scholarships, such as signing Willows late, McDonald late- pushing Smith and Hill- pulling up Thrush- this is what happens in College hockey folks!! If it were easy, you could just draft a recruiting docterine and follow that! Do we think Umile and staff did not consult with the Tri-City staff regarding MV's development? Would be a boneheaded move to make that call, based upong the stats sheet alone.

WIrinkrat
12-18-2011, 10:43 AM
Really? -There is only 1 D man committeed under 6'1'" the next 3 classes. Plenty of forwads fit that mold.


Like I said, I didn't go and look but I'd say it is certainly true, at least in regards to our defensemen that there has been an effort to recruit bigger players that may or may not be more effective in the d-zone instead of the smaller puck moving defensemen that have at times been victimized at that end of the ice.

As to the younger forwards, we will see what they are billed at when they actually show up on campus but I'm guessing a few of them will be bigger than they are currently. Just seems like bigger groups overall than we've had in the past, but that could mostly be a result of the onus on recruiting all these big slow defensemen.

BoSox3066
12-18-2011, 11:12 AM
Regarding MV and Mass HS hockey....look at Harvard. Colin Blackwell's having an impact as a frosh with no USHL time. He and MV shared CC MVP last year....if I'm MV and I see what Colin's doing, there's no way I'm waiting another full year. Barring injury he'll be ready for D1 hockey in 2012-13.

Greg Ambrose
12-18-2011, 11:17 AM
So now we have some excuses. Vechionne was no good after all (which leads to the question as to why he was recruited in the first place), admissions is tough, can't get the players they recruit past admissions (so why are we spinning our wheels on kids who, presumably, the recruiters know can't past muster/), and the rink stinks (so why is UNH getting hosed by Merrimack?).

Look, I don't have a clue as to what the grades were for White, Reid, and the rest. But I do know that they weren't good enough to get into UNH, otherwise they would be here. Perhaps the admissions landscape changed between the time these kids committed and the time they were to begin their UNH careers. I can buy that excuse in the very short term, but that stuff happened two-three years ago. It can't be an excuse now. I am sure the program does not like the new admission standards, but it is what it is. Best to focus on those kids who can get into school rather than those who may have a 1 in 4 chance at getting by the admissions office. As someone stated, that's the job of a recruiter. You gotta know the product your selling.

As for Vechionne's ranking in EMass hockey, it certainly looked pretty good to me. I admit I never saw him play but I know that MC was the top team in the state, that his two linemates are also going D1 and that his coach had spent over a decade at UNH and Merrimack. It seemed to me that he had been groomed pretty well and. whatever the reason for his performance in the USHL, he had the skills to be an effective college player. The fact that he has decommitted says to me that he is already been approached by more than one school and that he has been assured that he will be on a D1 roster in the fall.

As for the rink, it's 15 years old, it needs to be spruced up a bit, but it certainly a better place to watch a game than all but a handful of rinks in the east. Compared to Merrimack, Providence, Northeastern, Maine, UVM, it should be a selling point not a negative.

Carry on

irishfan85
12-18-2011, 11:30 AM
Not a UNH fan, but I've enjoyed going to games at the Whitt since it opened. Awesome college atmosphere and there was until this year always a good product on the ice for the home team. I don't think the rink is the problem, but the one thing that disappoints me is the crowd has gotten much less intimidating over the past few years. Not sure if it's the economy, the lack of Frozen Four appearances, or what.

i'zonprize
12-18-2011, 12:00 PM
G.A.- regarding admissions- Reid and White are the last 2 cases of recruits not getting in due to academics(on the hockey team anyway-- believe the Basketball team had an issue just last yr with a kid from Brimmer & May) Only know of what I read about Geaudreau but, seems as though it was admissions asleep at the wheel- not the coaching staff who engaged the player, perhaps got a commitment? and had him submit his admissions ap. Lellegia, IMO was thrown by the signing of TVR- opted out cause he didn't want to share the Point. UNH obvioulsy made some quick decisions to fill the roster- and the loss of the JR class recuits and the 2 yr probationary period has hurt- there is no question about that. Now, almost all the Frosh. suiting up are doing well. Willows seems to be getting better with only 4 games under his belt as well. Regarding, MV- Harvard doesn't exactly have the recent track record that UNH does- so, if there is an 18yr kid excelling there- fantastic, good for him- but would that kid come in at 18yrs old if he was suiting up for an annual NCAA tournement team?? Maybe, maybe not.

While I'm not apposed to having people held accountable OR brining in new blood that can bring excitement to the program including the coaching staff- but lets consider everything- not just some key personel loses and they have been BIG. It would be impossible to admit that the team is not in a slump right now- but UNH has also been 1 game away from the Frozen 4 three yrs running, losing 2 very tight games- and have 3 RS titles in the last 5 yrs- as well as 3 Hobey Finalist in the last 4 yrs.. so- all this stuff stings, but outside of this half season- it would be difficult to argue that despite some struggles, that the overall results have not been good.

Hokydad
12-18-2011, 12:08 PM
en

most points vs who? over 90% of goalies and players in that league never even played club hockey let alone AAA. National Festival's +none

same league collins played in but better. that was the comparison

Hokydad
12-18-2011, 12:25 PM
So now we have some excuses. Vechionne was no good after all (which leads to the question as to why he was recruited in the first place), admissions is tough, can't get the players they recruit past admissions (so why are we spinning our wheels on kids who, presumably, the recruiters know can't past muster/), and the rink stinks (so why is UNH getting hosed by Merrimack?).

Look, I don't have a clue as to what the grades were for White, Reid, and the rest. But I do know that they weren't good enough to get into UNH, otherwise they would be here. Perhaps the admissions landscape changed between the time these kids committed and the time they were to begin their UNH careers. I can buy that excuse in the very short term, but that stuff happened two-three years ago. It can't be an excuse now. I am sure the program does not like the new admission standards, but it is what it is. Best to focus on those kids who can get into school rather than those who may have a 1 in 4 chance at getting by the admissions office. As someone stated, that's the job of a recruiter. You gotta know the product your selling.

As for Vechionne's ranking in EMass hockey, it certainly looked pretty good to me. I admit I never saw him play but I know that MC was the top team in the state, that his two linemates are also going D1 and that his coach had spent over a decade at UNH and Merrimack. It seemed to me that he had been groomed pretty well and. whatever the reason for his performance in the USHL, he had the skills to be an effective college player. The fact that he has decommitted says to me that he is already been approached by more than one school and that he has been assured that he will be on a D1 roster in the fall.

As for the rink, it's 15 years old, it needs to be spruced up a bit, but it certainly a better place to watch a game than all but a handful of rinks in the east. Compared to Merrimack, Providence, Northeastern, Maine, UVM, it should be a selling point not a negative.

Carry on

He has 8 schools lined up and more to come. Academics? Please, most are far superior to UNH, far superior academic wise. If a kid is not getting thru admissions it is because they were jr kids loaded up on on line classes.

University of New Hampshire , with an acceptance rate of 73.4 percent and an early acceptance rate of 82.9 percent

He has provided transcripts to schools with acceptance in single digit and is being recruited hard

BC is 28%
BU around 57%
U Mane around 77%
UVM around 45%
PC around 43%
Northeastern around 38%
Merrimack around 78%
U Mass 68%
Lowell 73%

End result, mc, unh and maine are safety schools....

i'zonprize
12-18-2011, 01:05 PM
So, Umile who has lifetime status, and learns Gaudreau is going to make a decision in August, suddenly can't coordinate with admissions to over a two-week period. He either has no clout, or he was asleep at the wheel.



I suspect you are wrong to think the top defenseman in Canada (for 2010) was thrown by the signing of a nice regional recruit for a later year (2011). (Especially when he signs with Denver, which had the USHL defenseman of the year and top scoring D Makowski coming.) He met with UNH coaches in April 2010, at which time "it was decided" he would defer for a year. In September he decommitted. Sound familiar? Not sure if Dover has a basis for saying it was an academic issue, though I note his family is well educated and he had no trouble getting into Denver, and, for what its worth, said he selected them for its academics. Or was it a case of UNH deferring him because he was too young, like they deferred Blake Kessel, Phil DeSimone, Grayson Downing. Sounds like the latter:

Quotes from Laleggia (http://pentictonvees.podbean.com/)
"The coaches (at Denver) really liked me and I felt wanted."
"There are guys who are committing at that young an age and they're having success."
"Mine (situation at UNH) just got a little complicated."

Well- it does appear that the Admissions department is playing king to atheltics at the moment- not cetain a new coach is going to change that.

I do recall the deferral- but his decommitment came only after TVR was signed, and it was the tussle over who would man the point on the PP what came to mind - looks like Laleggia is doing well currently in his Frosh campaign, TVR as well. TVR also has a younger brother-- but who knows the real reason why? TVR is a solid pick up, despite the resume that is heavily in favor of Laleggia.

Hockeydad-- nobody stated that MV cound not get into UNH- G.A was referring to the UNH faithful that was making general excuses- but whatever- hope that MV's new school gives him exactly what he's looking for and that UNH can use the $ wisely.

carltonbarrett
12-18-2011, 01:52 PM
Considering that UNH has a pretty liberal acceptance rate, does that mean that if Admissions has all of a sudden started rejecting kids, they were previously using the clearinghouse as the acceptance bar? I know that's how Maine operates, but thought UNH had higher standards?