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C-H-C
10-12-2010, 10:00 PM
Maybe what happened is he realized that Denver was closer to home, that they play in the highly regarded WCHA, and that they have a better track record in the NCAA tournament. How old was this kid when he committed, 15 or 16? He changed his mind when he is now 18. How many teenagers have you observed whose thought process is a hell of a lot different at 18 than it was 2 or 3 years earlier?

I agree with JB that Leleggia is different than Reid or White. For whatever reason, UNH has had a couple of problems recently getting kids past admissions. That tells me that the criteria has changed and that kids with similar academics who got into UNH 5, 6, 7 years ago might not pass muster now. Whether that is because of the overall ratcheting up of admissions requirements at the school or some edict from on high regarding athletic admissions I don't know. But it appears that the UNH coaching staff is feeling their way a little bit on this.

As for Umile and his relationship with freshmen, the only kid I can think of in the last 10 years who came in with a "free pass" was JVR. How could he not, with his pedigree. You go back to guys like Krog (20 points freshman year), Haydar (not elevated to the first line until 8 games into the season), Saviano (next to no playing time as a freshman) and you can see that the coach has a show-me philosophy. We all know he is partial to his senior classes, but I can also say that, if a kid shows what he can do, he'll play. But he has to show it first, primarily in practice. Just an observation.
This all makes a lot of sense. To some degree, all coaching staffs, even those who are perceived as being invincible, are feeling their way through the changing landscape of recruiting. You go after the highly touted draft picks and you run the risk of them leaving early or trying to parlay their commitment into a better deal somewhere else. You go after the young teenagers who have as many goals as pimples and you risk them deciding they like another college's mascot more than yours.

I think it's telling that BC lost one NHL draft pick (Cody Ferriero) to one of their in-town competitors and was concerned enough about the thinness of their talent pool next season to welcome an ethically-challenged player (Vinny Saponari) discarded by their perennial nemesis. The main difference is that Coach York and his staff tend to be cut a lot of slack while Coach Umile and his staff - not so much.

Nick Papagiorgio
10-13-2010, 11:57 AM
The main difference is that Coach York and his staff tend to be cut a lot of slack while Coach Umile and his staff - not so much.

York gets cut a lot of slack? In what regard?

JB
10-13-2010, 01:23 PM
As I didn't make the statement I will just give you my view.

I think right now UNH Admissions is being extremely tight. Almost like admissions thinks UNH is some uber elite school.

I am a proud grad of my school but UNH is not an “elite” school; I accepted at UNH, BU, Virgina Tech, RPI for Engineering. I picked UNH for a bunch of reasons. I also firmly believe that unless your degree says MIT, Harvard or Cal Tech, 10 years out nobody cares where the skin is from, there are studies that have demonstrated this as practice in business & gov't. The student makes the school not the other way around, I was going to be most comfortable at UNH and so I think I succeeded because it was the right place for me.

I personally know some out of staters that couldn't get into UNH but did get into for example BU and Umass. I can't see why UNH admissions would turn that type of student down, other than because they can.

My impression is UNH admissions are currently not looking at the other skill of "athlete" as much of anything.

My gut tells me Cam Reid gets into BC, because if Jerry wanted him (and as he is at SCSU he passed the clearing house) he could put whatever supports in place so that admission would let him in and he would then stay eligible. This "slack" Jerry gets Umile and crew might have had tightened lately by a few seniors getting into academic trouble (I can think of 2 D-men missing a semester their senior year due to grades or progress). I am also under the impression the head of admissions has changed in the last 3 to 5 years matching up with the “tighter” rules. However, there has been a long standing UNH admissions strangeness regarding out of state students, I have posted elsewhere about a couple of former BU hockey players that rumor has it would have gone to UNH except for admissions.

C-H-C
10-13-2010, 02:27 PM
York gets cut a lot of slack? In what regard?
Fair questions. I was mostly referring to Hockey East enthusiasts who express their views on the Fan Forum and those who take the time to write a comment in response to articles on UNH Hockey in the various New Hampshire newspapers. When a coach leads his team to two out of the last three National Championships and is widely regarded as an outstanding strategist, then fans are not looking to jump all over him for the slightest miscue. Coach Umile, on the other hand, is readily criticized for any move that could possibly be construed as a mistake (including his wardrobe). I guess the best way to explain what I mean is to imagine if a highly regarded, NHL draft pick such as Cody Ferrerio had bailed on UNH late in the summer only to join a Hockey East rival. There would be a segment of UNH fans (and possibly other Hockey East fans) who would have assumed the worse and roundly criticized Umile for somehow screwing up. Contrast that possible reaction with the one expressed by most BC fans when Ferrerio decommited from BC. I don't recall Coach York receiving any criticism. On the contrary, Ferrerio was portrayed as an overly selfish player who BC didn't really need anyway. Similarly, if Coach Umile had gone after Vinny Saponari and lured him to UNH, he probably would have been criticized for violating the code of honor amongst senior Hockey East coaches and viewed as a ruthless opportunist. From what I've read so far on the forum, Coach York's motives and actions have not been criticized by BC fans (rightly or wrongly).
I'm not commenting on whether Coach Umile deserves less latitude than Coach York - only that he doesn't seem to get it from many fans.

RockTheWhit
10-13-2010, 02:43 PM
Similarly, if Coach Umile had gone after Vinny Saponari and lured him to UNH, he probably would have been criticized for violating the code of honor amongst senior Hockey East coaches and viewed as a ruthless opportunist.

Huh?

C-H-C
10-13-2010, 02:46 PM
Huh?
Maybe a little over the top:o

Nick Papagiorgio
10-13-2010, 03:32 PM
Fair questions. I was mostly referring to Hockey East enthusiasts who express their views on the Fan Forum and those who take the time to write a comment in response to articles on UNH Hockey in the various New Hampshire newspapers. When a coach leads his team to two out of the last three National Championships and is widely regarded as an outstanding strategist, then fans are not looking to jump all over him for the slightest miscue. Coach Umile, on the other hand, is readily criticized for any move that could possibly be construed as a mistake (including his wardrobe). I guess the best way to explain what I mean is to imagine if a highly regarded, NHL draft pick such as Cody Ferrerio had bailed on UNH late in the summer only to join a Hockey East rival. There would be a segment of UNH fans (and possibly other Hockey East fans) who would have assumed the worse and roundly criticized Umile for somehow screwing up. Contrast that possible reaction with the one expressed by most BC fans when Ferrerio decommited from BC. I don't recall Coach York receiving any criticism. On the contrary, Ferrerio was portrayed as an overly selfish player who BC didn't really need anyway.

I see what you're saying now... but let's be truthful, I would find it hard to believe that someone would criticize Umile, even without the hardware that York has, in any way if he had a team so stacked for an upcoming season and preseason #1 almost unanimously that he a) couldn't promise ice time to a hotshot punk and b) kept his promise to said hotshot punk in regards to scholarship money offered at the time of the oral agreement between the two at the time of said hotshot punk's verbal commitment. Even a crazy, turtleneck-hating hillbilly like someone we all know (God bless him).

To be honest, I think you're really reaching here.



Similarly, if Coach Umile had gone after Vinny Saponari and lured him to UNH, he probably would have been criticized for violating the code of honor amongst senior Hockey East coaches and viewed as a ruthless opportunist. From what I've read so far on the forum, Coach York's motives and actions have not been criticized by BC fans (rightly or wrongly).
I'm not commenting on whether Coach Umile deserves less latitude than Coach York - only that he doesn't seem to get it from many fans.

I guess York has the luxury of earning some hardware and becoming almost invincible to some fans (not myself, I still think he does some crazy stuff but he ends up always being right! :cool: ). Coach Umiliation... not so much. That's just the way it is. I think Saponari will do well at BC and will prove that York made a good call to give a 2nd chance. Just my $.02.

I have no idea what your "code of honor amongst senior Hockey East coaches" line is all about but you're rolling Animal House style so I'll just let you go with it.

Slasher7
10-13-2010, 03:47 PM
The main difference is that Coach York and his staff tend to be cut a lot of slack while Coach Umile and his staff - not so much.

Not true at all. He doesn't recruit kids he knows that won't fly through admissions and gets no break from the admissions department

RockTheWhit
10-13-2010, 03:54 PM
Not true at all. He doesn't recruit kids he knows that won't fly through admissions and gets no break from the admissions department

Couldn't agree more. In today's hockey landscape, it is the recruiter's responsibility to go after kids that want to play for the school and will actually be able to make it to campus.

sterlippo1
10-13-2010, 03:57 PM
Maybe a little over the top:o

nope, i actually would tend to agree with you on the saponari part of it

[UNH]Rig
10-13-2010, 03:58 PM
Similarly, if Coach Umile had gone after Vinny Saponari and lured him to UNH, he probably would have been criticized for violating the code of honor amongst senior Hockey East coaches and viewed as a ruthless opportunist.

Well according to USHR.com, UNH was in the running along with other Hockey East schools.


Saponari, who had 30 points as a sophomore last season, has been the object of a lot of attention this fall. Schools we heard were most heavily involved were, in addition to BC, Vermont, UNH, Northeastern, and RPI. Many others were interested, but those were the big contenders. Any program could see his immediate value, and should be interested in his talents.

C-H-C
10-13-2010, 06:58 PM
Let's see - how many more lame hypotheticals can I come up with that will crash and burn? I think I'll quit while I'm considerably behind.:o
Suffice to say that there are a fair number of fans (UNH and otherwise) who tend to be critical of Coach Umile. Not many Division 1 coaches get a "Fire (coach's name)" thread.
My primary interest has been to find out if Coach Umile and/or his staff made any unnecessary mistakes that lead to either Bourque, Reid, White and/or Laleggia decommiting. If so, then it's reasonable for the fans to know about it. I have no issues with fact-based criticism. If no mistakes were made - a pretty solid case was made by Greg on this point - then, as i'zon said "C'est la vie."

C-H-C
10-13-2010, 07:53 PM
In the battle of the Decommit vs. the Commit, Joey Laleggia scored two goals including the game winner in overtime (http://www.westsidewarriors.ca/leagues/newsletter.cfm?clientID=1414&leagueID=3597&page=47416). Grayson Downing assisted on the one Westside Warriors goal.

Greg Ambrose
10-13-2010, 08:17 PM
Let's see - how many more lame hypotheticals can I come up with that will crash and burn? I think I'll quit while I'm considerably behind.:o
Suffice to say that there are a fair number of fans (UNH and otherwise) who tend to be critical of Coach Umile. Not many Division 1 coaches get a "Fire (coach's name)" thread.
My primary interest has been to find out if Coach Umile and/or his staff made any unnecessary mistakes that lead to either Bourque, Reid, White and/or Laleggia decommiting. If so, then it's reasonable for the fans to know about it. I have no issues with fact-based criticism. If no mistakes were made - a pretty solid case was made by Greg on this point - then, as i'zon said "C'est la vie."

Some good points have been made here. I do think admissions is a problem for the hockey program right now as indicated by White and Reid. If they passed muster with the NCAA clearing house, my guess is that they would have been admitted to UNH in the past. I can think of 3 or 4 kids off the top my head who really struggled to make the number to get into UNH 10+ years ago. I wonder if they would make it now.

As for Yandle and Bourque, I think there were totally different reasons why they never played at UNH. When you look back at it, Yandle was pretty much NHL ready when he went off to QMJHL. I think it only took him two years from the time he started juniors that he was getting a regular shift with the Coyotes. With Bourque, I had a conversation with someone in the know who told me that his signing bonus was the equivalent to four years tuition. He better salt it away, because, with his size, I doubt if he will ever be "NHL ready."

Alluding to JB's comment, I had heard that the new head of admissions has a Cornell background. I have no idea if this person is the reason, but all indications are that UNH has become more selective and has increased the percentage of out-of-state admits. I have to think that these things have to be a factor when any of UNH's athletic programs goes out and recruits.

Hokydad
10-13-2010, 08:33 PM
Not true at all. He doesn't recruit kids he knows that won't fly through admissions and gets no break from the admissions department

That is 100% complete BS

C-H-C
10-13-2010, 08:39 PM
I had heard that the new head of admissions has a Cornell background. I have no idea if this person is the reason, but all indications are that UNH has become more selective and has increased the percentage of out-of-state admits. I have to think that these things have to be a factor when any of UNH's athletic programs goes out and recruits.
So why didn't Riley Nash and Ben Scrivens come to UNH?;)

RockTheWhit
10-14-2010, 11:39 AM
INCH posted their annual recruiting rankings. UNH is not in the top 15 classes and does not have a top 20 forward, top 20 defenseman or top 10 goalie. Knodel would have been the only guy to challenge for one of those spots, but he won't be in the lineup for the first part of the season.
http://insidecollegehockey.com/7Archives/Features/1011/recruitsteam_1011.htm

Darius
10-15-2010, 11:03 AM
I personally know some out of staters that couldn't get into UNH but did get into for example BU and Umass. I can't see why UNH admissions would turn that type of student down, other than because they can.It may be more "didn't" than "couldn't". The admissions department has a lot of trade offs and gambles. They must leave room for qualified NH resident applicants, maximize revenue from full paying out of state students and ensure that they have room for everyone who decides to attend. I suspect they may gamble on rejecting an applicant who they feel will be accepted and attend to a BU, figuring he/she might get aid, in favor of a non resident who does not have BU like credentials, but is likely to pay full cost to UNH. The nightmare scenario is more accepted students than anticipated deciding to attend UNH and not having room for them on campus.


My impression is UNH admissions are currently not looking at the other skill of "athlete" as much of anything.I agree.

JB
10-15-2010, 02:48 PM
It may be more "didn't" than "couldn't". The admissions department has a lot of trade offs and gambles. They must leave room for qualified NH resident applicants, maximize revenue from full paying out of state students and ensure that they have room for everyone who decides to attend. I suspect they may gamble on rejecting an applicant who they feel will be accepted and attend to a BU, figuring he/she might get aid, in favor of a non resident who does not have BU like credentials, but is likely to pay full cost to UNH. The nightmare scenario is more accepted students than anticipated deciding to attend UNH and not having room for them on campus.

I know it is a complex equation with many moving parts. The out of state piece for UNH is a strange deal, on one hand they need to keep slots for in state students, on the other out of state pay more.

However, if UNH is going to attempt to field competitive teams admissions needs to leave those spots open and compensate elsewhere.

I honestly think that the hockey team has had a couple seniors not stay on top of the there studies and miss a semester. If I am admissions I am taking some of the slack out the rope because I am not trusting that the program is going to make sure everything is OK with a marginal athlete.

Darius
10-15-2010, 07:09 PM
However, if UNH is going to attempt to field competitive teams admissions needs to leave those spots open and compensate elsewhere.

I honestly think that the hockey team has had a couple seniors not stay on top of the there studies and miss a semester. If I am admissions I am taking some of the slack out the rope because I am not trusting that the program is going to make sure everything is OK with a marginal athlete.

We do field competitive teams, but I hear what you are saying and have mixed feelings. I want the team(s) to succeed even more than they are, but am proud of UNH when I see players with excellent academic records and outstanding character. I chuckle when a rival team loses players because they can't handle the school work, has to dismiss a player or remove his captain's letter for violating team rules or discipline several for being in a car hit by a train.

Do you think better funded schools/programs feel more comfortable admitting borderline academic athletes because they know they can rely on a stronger support program to help these athletes academically?