ECAC D2/D3 history question

[Ralph Slate]

I'm hoping someone here can help me out. I'm trying to compile yearly ECAC D2 and D3 records. Unfortunately, the ECAC media guides stopped including D2 and D3 starting with the 1997-98 edition (not sure if they released a separate D3 media guide starting that year).

Prior to that, the East/West/SUNY were grouped together in the guide in one section, and North/Central/South were grouped together in another section. I think it was sort-of a tip of the hat to when there was a D2 comprised of East/West and a D3 comprised of North/South.

Can someone tell me if the SUNY teams are still known as ECAC-SUNY? If not, was there a year where they formally withdrew from the ECAC?

During the 80's, some schools were technically part of NESCAC, but were primarily considered part of the ECAC. Colleges like Middlebury, Williams, etc. I see no mention of those colleges on the ECAC website -- was there a year when they formally withdrew from the ECAC?

Same question goes for the MASCAC.

I know that all the conferences are technically considered D3 now, starting in the early 90's, but at least until 1996-97 they were still separated as I described above - can someone tell me if they are still viewed in their old groupings, with East/West as sort-of the "stronger" D3 teams, the equivalent of the old D2, and Northeast as the "weaker" D3 teams, the equivalent of the old D3? Or would people consider the NESCAC the heir to the D2 legacy? Or do people just see the various ECAC conferences, plus NESCAC and MASCAC as all separate and distinct D3 conferences, no more groupings the way the ECAC used to group?

Thanks for the help.

Ralph Slate

[d3follower]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

NESCAC became a playing conference in the fall of 1999, with a core group of teams being long-time members of the ECAC East (the old D2). All NESCAC teams competed in the ECAC up until the 1999-2000 season. The core group of former D2 ECAC East teams would be Bowdoin, Colby, Hamilton, Middlebury and Williams. The rest of the NESCAC (except for Tufts) moved from the ECAC North/South to the ECAC East over time. I'm not sure on the exact dates when each moved to the ECAC East but Amherst, Conn College, Trinity, and Wesleyan all joined the ECAC East at various dates in the 1990s. Tufts went straight from what is now the ECAC Northeast to the NESCAC.

You'll find a similarly mixed picture for the current ECAC East. Babson, NEC, Norwich, St. Anselm, UMass-Boston, and the now-departed Salem State are long-time members of the former D2 ECAC East. I believe that USM, Skidmore, and St. Mike's came from the ECAC North/South to the ECAC East while Castleton and UNE are new programs that started out as ECAC East members.

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

I'm hoping someone here can help me out. I'm trying to compile yearly ECAC D2 and D3 records. Unfortunately, the ECAC media guides stopped including D2 and D3 starting with the 1997-98 edition (not sure if they released a separate D3 media guide starting that year).

Prior to that, the East/West/SUNY were grouped together in the guide in one section, and North/Central/South were grouped together in another section. I think it was sort-of a tip of the hat to when there was a D2 comprised of East/West and a D3 comprised of North/South.

Can someone tell me if the SUNY teams are still known as ECAC-SUNY? If not, was there a year where they formally withdrew from the ECAC?

During the 80's, some schools were technically part of NESCAC, but were primarily considered part of the ECAC. Colleges like Middlebury, Williams, etc. I see no mention of those colleges on the ECAC website -- was there a year when they formally withdrew from the ECAC?

Same question goes for the MASCAC.

I know that all the conferences are technically considered D3 now, starting in the early 90's, but at least until 1996-97 they were still separated as I described above - can someone tell me if they are still viewed in their old groupings, with East/West as sort-of the "stronger" D3 teams, the equivalent of the old D2, and Northeast as the "weaker" D3 teams, the equivalent of the old D3? Or would people consider the NESCAC the heir to the D2 legacy? Or do people just see the various ECAC conferences, plus NESCAC and MASCAC as all separate and distinct D3 conferences, no more groupings the way the ECAC used to group?

Thanks for the help.

Ralph Slate

I believe the SUNYAC formally separated in 92, although I could be wrong about that (I was born in 91). There is no SUNYAC women's league, and the SUNYAC teams with women's hockey do still compete in the ECAC-West

NESCAC separated from the ECAC-East in 99 or 00, can't remember which, but the two conferences have conducted an interlocking schedule arrangement ever since (that will end after this upcoming season).

The MASCAC began play this past season (09/10).


As for your other questions: The ECAC conferences, the NESCAC, and the MASCAC all function as completely separate conferences, and are not grouped in any way.

The East, West, and NESCAC would all be considered generally more competitive conferences than the northeast. The bottom of each league, except the West, are all just as... not competitive, let's say... but the tops in the East (Norwich) and NESCAC (Middlebury, Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin) would all be considered highly-competitive teams, whereas the Northeast only occasionally puts more than 1 team in the tournament. The West, with the loss of Lebanon Valley, is fairly consistent in calibre. Elmira and Manhattanville have a bit of a lead on Hobart and Utica, but all are relatively competitive teams out of conference. The West will be struggling to survive after this season, with the loss of the Pool B slot that served as their effective automatic qualifier.

*Note that the relative competitiveness described above is my view of the long-term stature. There are obvious exceptions to this analysis, and many will have different opinions, but this is my honest opinion.

[Buck Woodshed]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

Middlebury, Norwich, No. Adams State, Westfield and Hamilton all used to belong to the ECAC West. Of course there were other teams in the ECAC West that now play D.1, such as Cansius, RIT, Mercyhurst and Union. The SUNY teams didn't have a playoff championship until the 84-85 season. Prior to that, the championship was based on regular season results. Also, The New York Collegiate Hockey Association was a major league once upon a time. If I had to rank the leagues in importance to a team back then I would put it as ECAC first, NYCHA second, and SUNYAC's last. The best teams in the early to mid 80's were RIT, Oswego, Plattsburgh, Elmira, Norwich, and Union. The next tier consisted of Geneseo, No. Adams, Potsdam, Hamilton.

[Ralph Slate]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

Here is what I have gleaned from looking at various ECAC media guides. Keep in mind that I don't have a full run of media guides, so there are holes here.

In the late 60's, the ECAC broke into Division 1 and Division 2.

In the early 70's, Division 2 had an East group and a West group. I haven't yet figured out when the East/West grouping came in effect, it was sometime between 1969 and 1975. The SUNY schools were part of the West grouping until 1992-93, when they were grouped into the ECAC-SUNY grouping. Then at some point they appear to have dropped out of the ECAC entirely.

D3 came into being sometime between 1969 and 1975 too. The D3 North/South grouping came into effect in 1985-86 (prior to that it was one big conference), and the North/South/Central grouping came into effect in 1992-93.

At some point in the late 80's/early 90's, the ECAC guides stopped referring to East/West as Division 2, and instead just called it East/West. They stopped referring to North/South as D3 and just called it North/South.

Prior to 1992-93, teams did not play balanced conference schedules. Standings were determined by winning percentage, and each team did not even play the same number of conference games. Starting in 1992-93 for SUNY, West, North, and Central, and starting in 1993-94 for East, the schools conference games were equalized.

I am trying to figure out how to model this for inclusion on hockeydb.com, trying to figure out when a grouping should be modeled as a separate league or as a division within a league. I am trying to model the seasons in a way that preserves the history of the conferences.

Here is what I have so far for the chronology of D2:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/326.html

Here is D3:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/333.html

There are still some holes that I plan to fill in as I get more data.

I have a few options:

1) Model each grouping as a separate league. So, for example, when what was called "ECAC Division 3" had a North and South grouping created in 1985-86, the old "ECAC Division 3" league would cease to exist, and two new leagues would take its place -- "ECAC Division 3 North" and "ECAC Division 3 South". And when schools moved into Central, they would be shown as leaving those aforementioned leagues and would show up as an entry in a new league called "ECAC Division 3 Central".

I don't like that option much because any simple realignment breaks the historical view. However, it offers some advantages with how the conferences are currently split, with SUNYAC, NESCAC, and MASCAC.

2) Model ECAC Division 2 as one league and ECAC Division 3 as another league. This is more attractive to me because the historical view would be broken when a team moves from D2 to D3 (or vice versa), which I think is appropriate, but it would be preserved with simple realignments.

A big drawback to this view is that the ECAC phased out D2/D3 designations in the 90's, so it isn't technically correct to call East/West "D2" even though it was playing at a higher level of play than North/South. This view also breaks down as time progresses, because over time, with teams moving to MAAC, NESCAC, etc., I suspect the difference between the North/South and the East/West lost historical meaning.

3) Go with a hybrid approach, meaning that I will keep ECAC East/West as "ECAC D2" and North/South/Central as "ECAC D3" until a particular season, at which point I will end the "ECAC D2" league and merge the D2 schools into the D3 league. That season might coincide with the MAAC teams leaving, unless someone has a better date to use. I would then keep East, West, and Northeast all ad "ECAC D3" and drop out the NESCAC and MASCAC as leagues when they came into being.

The drawback with that is that the ex-D2 schools will be shown as D2 longer than they were actually officially D2.

Anyone have any opinions on this? I lack perspective on D2/D3, since I follow D1. I can see that from a D1 perspective, it wouldn't make any sense to include Hockey East as a conference within something called "ECAC Div. 1", but on the other hand it wouldn't make any sense to have three separate ECAC leagues prior to 1984-85, named "ECAC West", "ECAC East" and "ECAC Ivy".

Thanks,

Ralph

[scoopnroll]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

I can tell you that the members of the ECAC East Conference back in 91-92 were made up of:

UConn
Middlebury
Salem State
Babson
Bowdoin
Norwich
Umass Boston
Holy Cross
Williams
AIC
Colby
St. Anselm
Trinity
North Adams
Conn. College
New Engalnd

Wesleyan would soon join in either 92-93 or 93 or 94.

The ECAC West was made up all SUNY schools and the following
Brockport
Plattsburgh
Fredonia
Geneseo
Potsdam
Cortland
Oswego
Mercyhurst
Elmria
RIT
Hobart
Scranton
Union
St. Bonaventures
Binghamton

These two leagues were considered Div. II. Accodring to ECAC Hockey Tradition:

"In the early years of college hockey in the East, teams all played in one division. Such teams as Bowdoin, Middlebury, Colby, and Williams played traditional hockey power such as Clarkson St. Lawrence, BC, and BU. With more and more teams developing hockey programs, more divisions were added and in 1966 the first ECAC Div. II Tournament was held. Colby, which beat Merrimack 5-0, was corwned that first Champion.

The Div. II tournament format remained the same until 1978 when the large number of teams playing hockey forced the establishment of ECAC East and West Divisions. Bowdoing won the East Title by beating Merrimack the first year of the new set up and Elmira defeated Middlebury to take the West Title that year.

Tournamet play continues to follow that same system, but another division, the North South has also been added to sccomodate what were once listed as Div. III teams. Circa 1991-92.

Here is Holy Cross schedule from 1992-93 season.

at Williams
at Hamilton
at Conn College
Crusader Classic
St. Anselm
Babson
Assumption
Bowdoin
Colby
at UConn
Trinity
at Norwich
at Middlebury
at St. Anselm
at Babson
at US Air Force Acad.
at US Air Force Acad.
Norwich
Middlebury
Amherst
at Bowdoin
at Colby
Williams
Hamilton

I don't know if any of this helped your cause but it is interesting that at one time there was a Div. II-III and today nobody could care about the DII schools that are almost extinct.

I'm hoping someone here can help me out. I'm trying to compile yearly ECAC D2 and D3 records. Unfortunately, the ECAC media guides stopped including D2 and D3 starting with the 1997-98 edition (not sure if they released a separate D3 media guide starting that year).

Prior to that, the East/West/SUNY were grouped together in the guide in one section, and North/Central/South were grouped together in another section. I think it was sort-of a tip of the hat to when there was a D2 comprised of East/West and a D3 comprised of North/South.

Can someone tell me if the SUNY teams are still known as ECAC-SUNY? If not, was there a year where they formally withdrew from the ECAC?

During the 80's, some schools were technically part of NESCAC, but were primarily considered part of the ECAC. Colleges like Middlebury, Williams, etc. I see no mention of those colleges on the ECAC website -- was there a year when they formally withdrew from the ECAC?

Same question goes for the MASCAC.

I know that all the conferences are technically considered D3 now, starting in the early 90's, but at least until 1996-97 they were still separated as I described above - can someone tell me if they are still viewed in their old groupings, with East/West as sort-of the "stronger" D3 teams, the equivalent of the old D2, and Northeast as the "weaker" D3 teams, the equivalent of the old D3? Or would people consider the NESCAC the heir to the D2 legacy? Or do people just see the various ECAC conferences, plus NESCAC and MASCAC as all separate and distinct D3 conferences, no more groupings the way the ECAC used to group?

Thanks for the help.

Ralph Slate

[d3follower]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

Middlebury, Norwich, No. Adams State, Westfield and Hamilton all used to belong to the ECAC West. . . .

Were there common play-offs involving some of the ECAC East and ECAC West teams or did the "ECAC West" with the current ECAC East and NESCAC teams that you list only exist for a short time?? Bowdoin's records for the "ECAC" play-offs (those records start in the 1970s and run through 1998) include games with Norwich, Middlebury, Hamilton, Army, and North Adams State, starting in the 1970s and running in to the 1980s and then, in the case of Middlebury and Norwich, throughout the 1990s. No sign at all of any SUNYAC or any of the other NY-based teams in those ECAC records so that would imply that perhaps those teams were not involved in those play-offs.

[Ralph Slate]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

I'll have to check that. You raise an interesting point, looking at the playoffs. It may not be possible though, because my understanding is that the playoff situation was completely convoluted (and maybe still is?), since some schools were not eligible for tournament play, maybe because they were D2 schools "playing down".

Conferences also have meaning due to games among members counting toward the conference standings. I'd have to go through the schedules from the 80's and 90's to see how that worked.

I did find this nugget at Kurt Stutt's excellent College Hockey Historical Archives:

In 1937, all NCAA members were officially designated as either a major or college team.

...

It was not until the 1960s, when the ECAC, with over 25 members, felt the need to divide its conference, that hockey began to adopt distinctions. Using a similar method that football had used three decades earlier, the better and popular teams formed the ECAC Division 1 and the rest of the schools became Division 2. Good hockey schools, like Rensselaer and Clarkson, were awarded major status in hockey although were college status in other sports. Connecticut, on the other hand, was a major school that opted for college status. Out west, far fewer varsity hockey teams meant the WCHA, the only conference at that time, would be a major college conference.

At a special NCAA convention on August 1, 1973, all major schools were reclassified as Division 1 and college schools were divided into Divisions 2 and 3. This was applied to all sports within a decade, with those college schools playing major hockey being classified as Division 1 in hockey and Division 2 or 3 in everything else, and vice-versa for major schools playing college status hockey. The schools on the college level could move into Division 2 or Division 3 as they saw fit. Most took the same status as their national affiliation, if not Division 1.

Further confusion arose from the ECAC's internal structure which classified what is now ECAC East-West-SUNY as Division 2 and the current Northeast conference as Division 3, while the school's hockey status may be different. The ECAC's designations reflected the playing level of the school, not the technical hockey affiliation. The East-West-SUNY schools (old ECAC Division 2) devote greater resources to their hockey programs than the others and therefore are rated higher in the ECAC.

This rather confusing system of labeling sports results in some anomalies. Merrimack is a Division 2 school that plays Division 1 hockey on the Division 1 level. Rensselaer is a Division 3 school that plays Division 1 hockey on the Division 1 level. Connecticut is a Division 1 school that formerly played Division 1 hockey on the Division 3 level. Over a dozen schools play Division 1 hockey but are institutionally classified Division 2 or Division 3, while 6 Division 1 schools once played at a lower level, but (in name only) fielded a Division 1 team.

No one ever said anything about the NCAA would be easy to understand. That is what college is for.

[d3follower]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

I'll have to check that. You raise an interesting point, looking at the playoffs. It may not be possible though, because my understanding is that the playoff situation was completely convoluted (and maybe still is?), since some schools were not eligible for tournament play, maybe because they were D2 schools "playing down".

Merrimack, Lowell, Holy Cross, AIC, UConn, etc. pop up repeatedly as among Bowdoin's opponents in the ECAC play-offs, with Merrimack not disappearing until 1989 and Holy Cross still showing up in 1995 and AIC in 1994 so I don't think that the playing down restriction existed as to the ECAC.

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

Merrimack, Lowell, Holy Cross, AIC, UConn, etc. pop up repeatedly as among Bowdoin's opponents in the ECAC play-offs, with Merrimack not disappearing until 1989 and Holy Cross still showing up in 1995 and AIC in 1994 so I don't think that the playing down restriction existed as to the ECAC.

Many DIII teams played up in DII prior to 1985, including much of the ECAC-West (including SUNYs) and ECAC-East (including NESCACs). Then, in 1985, the DIIIs were forced to compete in a DIII championship. Until 1989, a few DIIs also played down in DIII, and there was no DII championship. Bemidji even made the National Championship Game/Series a couple times, winnign it once against RIT, and losing it once to *vacated* (Plattsburgh).

But then the NCAA decided to prohibit play-downs in National Tournaments, so through most of the 90s, there was a DII championship, but most DIIs were in DIII conferences. Most of those conferences allowed the DIIs to participate in the conference tournaments, which is why for a while only the NCHA and SUNYAC had autobids. The top 2 DIIs would meet in a three-game series, and for the most part it was the Bemidji/Huntsville rivalry at the end of the season.

Then DII adopted their "50 schools for a championship" policy, and hockey fell below that standard. So began the mass exodus of DII hockey programs to DI, leaving only 7 in limbo (the 6 NE10 schools, and Minn-Crookston). It was at this time that the ECAC-E and NESCAC formally split, the remaining DIIs were banned from conference tournaments (except Crookston in the MCHA until Adrian came along), and AQs started popping up everywhere.

So, in essence, the issues with DII and DIII revolve around the convoluted story of NCAA being unable to make up their minds, and generally not caring about hockey anyway.




At least, that is my understanding of events. Somebody with more familiarity, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Dyce]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

While Cards_rule put it into words well, I figured I'd provide a visual depiction of the whole DII/DIII history thing to make things as clear as possible:

*****http://imgur.com/vYHAy.png******

Notes:

1. 1978: The DII Championship is created. DIII teams may play up freely, so it's essentially a II/III combined title. Beginning of the "NCAA Actually Had Things Right" Era.

2. 1984: The DIII Championship is created. For one season - 1984 - the two divisions play separate championships, after which the DII championship is discarded. DII teams, however, are allowed to play down for the DIII championship, so all that really changes is the number of "I"s on the trophy.

3. 1987: (vacated).

4. 1993: The NCAA resurrects the DII championship and bars DII teams from playing down. End of the "NCAA Actually Had Things Right" Era.

5. 2000: New NCAA rules regarding championships eliminate the DII title. Some of the remaining DII programs that did not begin playing up to DI following the 1993 split do so now; those that do not become the stranded "limbo" programs.

Also, one quick correction: Bemidji actually lost to RIT and beat (vacated) in consecutive championships (I know, it's completely counterintuitive ). (vacated) did beat Bemidji in the semis the year they won their lone championship, however.

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

While Cards_rule put it into words well, I figured I'd provide a visual depiction of the whole DII/DIII history thing to make things as clear as possible:

*****http://imgur.com/vYHAy.png******

Notes:

1. 1978: The DII Championship is created. DIII teams may play up freely, so it's essentially a II/III combined title. Beginning of the "NCAA Actually Had Things Right" Era.

2. 1984: The DIII Championship is created. For one season - 1984 - the two divisions play separate championships, after which the DII championship is discarded. DII teams, however, are allowed to play down for the DIII championship, so all that really changes is the number of "I"s on the trophy.

3. 1987: (vacated).

4. 1993: The NCAA resurrects the DII championship and bars DII teams from playing down. End of the "NCAA Actually Had Things Right" Era.

5. 2000: New NCAA rules regarding championships eliminate the DII title. Some of the remaining DII programs that did not begin playing up to DI following the 1993 split do so now; those that do not become the stranded "limbo" programs.

Also, one quick correction: Bemidji actually lost to RIT and beat (vacated) in consecutive championships (I know, it's completely counterintuitive ). (vacated) did beat Bemidji in the semis the year they won their lone championship, however.

Well done, I must say. As for vacated... my bad. If I'd actually thought about it, I'd probably have realized that it was Oswego who lost the title to vacated

Also, am I correct in recalling that Oswego beat St. Cloud in the semifinals that year? Two DIIs (who now play DI) and two DIIIs in the final four, and the DIIIs were the winners

And did not vacated also participate, and lose, in the quarterfinals one of the following years? This was before my birth, and such records are difficult to come by and even more difficult to remember.

EDIT: Also, I do believe that some ECAC Schools (North/South?) were already technically play DIII prior to 1984, but there was no championship at the time due to the low number of teams,. Not terribly important, but the distinction between DII and DIII prior to the DIII championship years should be noted.

[Dyce]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

Well done, I must say. As for vacated... my bad. If I'd actually thought about it, I'd probably have realized that it was Oswego who lost the title to vacated

Also, am I correct in recalling that Oswego beat St. Cloud in the semifinals that year? Two DIIs (who now play DI) and two DIIIs in the final four, and the DIIIs were the winners

And did not vacated also participate, and lose, in the quarterfinals one of the following years? This was before my birth, and such records are difficult to come by and even more difficult to remember.

EDIT: Also, I do believe that some ECAC Schools (North/South?) were already technically play DIII prior to 1984, but there was no championship at the time due to the low number of teams,. Not terribly important, but the distinction between DII and DIII prior to the DIII championship years should be noted.

Absolutely on the pre-1984 thing: all of the DIII schools in those tournaments were technically fielding DII hockey programs. It was just a lot easier to say "OK, we're a (division higher than the school's certification) team" in general back then. I'm actually pretty sure this was the genesis of the chronic problem with competitive disparity that formed between the ECAC N/S/C and the E/W, and subsequently carried through into the ECACNE (gosh, why would anyone ever think DIII hockey's conference history is a tad convoluted?).

Yep, Oswego did beat St. Cloud in the '87 semis. I believe there's even a little highlight reel prior to the title game in WPTZ's coverage of the championship (as an aside, this reminds me yet again that I REALLY need to digitize my VHS copy of that game before it demagnetizes, or whatever it is VHS tapes do).

I was in preschool for (vacated)'s quarterfinal loss, so I'm afraid I'm not a much better primary source than you on that one However, if my memories of insomniac searches through the Press-Republican archives serve me well, 1988 was particularly infamous as the season that ended with Plattsburgh instigating a coordinated bench-clearing brawl following an upset series loss versus Babson. And doing so in front of an NCAA watchdog specially assigned to the series (in addition to the standard NCAA retinue) amidst complaints over institutional control of Cardinal hockey. This got Plattsburgh summarily banned from the '89 postseason, and didn't help one bit with the ongoing investigation that culminated in the creation of (vacated).

[Buck Woodshed]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

Were there common play-offs involving some of the ECAC East and ECAC West teams or did the "ECAC West" with the current ECAC East and NESCAC teams that you list only exist for a short time?? Bowdoin's records for the "ECAC" play-offs (those records start in the 1970s and run through 1998) include games with Norwich, Middlebury, Hamilton, Army, and North Adams State, starting in the 1970s and running in to the 1980s and then, in the case of Middlebury and Norwich, throughout the 1990s. No sign at all of any SUNYAC or any of the other NY-based teams in those ECAC records so that would imply that perhaps those teams were not involved in those play-offs.

It's true that those teams played a great deal of games against the ECAC East teams, but when the ECAC playoffs came around they played in the ECAC West playoffs. As an example,I can remember in 82-83 that the seeding went like this: 1) RIT 2) Norwich 3) Oswego 4)Plattsburgh 5)Potsdam 6) Elmira 7) North Adams 8) Middlebury.

[norm1909]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

Here is a thread from this past spring (3/23/10) that also addresses similar aspects.